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  #31  
Old 11-15-05, 12:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stabile
Actually, the feminist movement fragmented and lost focus because of difficulty understanding exactly the details weíve been describing. Few who were involved feel that the movement achieved its objectives along these lines, and it only enjoyed limited success in other areas.

Pay disparity is still almost as much a problem as it was in the early Seventies, for example.
What is the relevance of that comment? Are you saying that because they didn't achieve their objective that they failed to make any impact on society? For someone who writes so eloquently, you sure don't read very well. I said an event occurred (the formation of the feminist movement), society changed (more education & employment for women, lower marriage rates, higher divorce rates), and behaviour has changed as a result of that. The fact that the movement collapsed means nothing to this debate. Pay disparity there may be, but they're not chained to the kitchen sink, resigned to raise children and clean the home. At least now they can get a job.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stabile
Currently there are a lot of roles like this being pandered out there through various means, and it isnít unusual that some females adopt them.
My point exactly. Currently there are roles like this; there haven't always been, and not because of any 'primal strategy' but because of changes in the social structure.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stabile
All that you would expect to differ is the impressions of the interviewers, who would all recognize and expect an old timer to sound like an old timer.
Not at all. Society itself will differ. And if you were to expect an old timer, you certainly wouldn't get one, computer programs don't age. What you would get is a young person talking as if he lived 50 years ago. Also the 'old timer' would be talking about events 50 years ago ó anxieties about the cold war and, seeing as Turing is the one I hypothesised as its creator, maybe it would advocate the decriminalisation of homosexuality. You would spot it easily, as it would still be living in the 50's. Times have changed, situations have changed, society has changed, and behaviour has changed ó the computer hasn't changed.

For you to stereotype so boldly about genders and behaviours is beyond belief. You be 'a rapist' if you want, but I'm in control of my behaviour, within social constraints of course, and I certainly don't rape anyone. The other thing I can't believe is that I'm debating with a scientist studying sociology, who refers to philosophers' books when debating on scientific issues. You're confused. Scientists studying advanced communication? It's plain stupid.
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  #32  
Old 11-15-05, 01:25 PM
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Iím not certain what your goals are, but if your intent is to incite, it wonít happen. We work with this stuff, and explaining what we know about it isnít a matter of engaging in debate.

Itís more like explanation, and if you understand, fine; if you donít, well, weíre willing to go further to a point, but itís not really our job. The facts weíre trying to explain arenít affected in any way by your grasp of them.

Neither is our understanding of them; if you want to contribute, that would be fine, but everyone else involved in working with these concepts is already on pretty much the same wavelength, and you at least need to come to terms with that before you can argue for a change.

If you want to play the game weíre involved in, you have to get on board the same boat as everyone else, where the game is played. Once you do that youíre welcome to suggest we should steer in a different direction. We can always use new ideas, but they have to actually address the mechanisms we know are at work in H. sapiens.

Unfortunately, denial or rejection of the fact these mechanisms exist are a part of the picture of the mechanism. We are programmed to resist addressing these issues, and that is one of the problems that researchers face every day, the root of the difficulty that the liberation movement experienced.

* * * * *

The subject of the thread isnít rape; itís advice to males to help them spot abusive situations. We merely pointed out that the potential for abuse will always be far greater for women, at least in our lifetimes, precisely because of the fact that the female version of the primitive strategy implicitly deals with the expectation of behavior that, in our modern social context, is abuse or worse.

There are no comparable built in behaviors in males; accordingly, the potential for abuse is much less. Our warning was basically not to expect that advice for males should mirror advice for females.

Men get such a chip on their shoulders about that, but thereís nothing anyone can do about it. Itís just the way it is, and itís no more a matter of opinion or subject to debate than, say, the prospect of male pattern baldness, or menopause.

You might not like it, but your own response is the only thing you can control about it. The rest is just fact.


Quote:
Originally Posted by eninac_DTS
While it isn't written in law that the OED is the official record of the language, a country which has English as its official language will have, written in law, a decree that all matters of the state are to be recorded in English. If what you are saying is true, that no one record of the English language is official and recognised as such, then those matters which are recorded ó even laws themselves ó are open to personal interpretation. The very courts which you claim don't recognise any dictionary would have nothing to refer to in order to settle disputes or even interpret the law. They need one source to refer to, they don't go to scientists, sociologists or anyone else you mentioned. They go to the Oxford English Dictionary, every time. If a word isn't listed in the OED, then it isn't an English word and only then will the courts refer to another dictionary...
Look, this isnít about language on that level, although weíve been fascinated with the way youíve addressed it as such. Problems discussing this subject are very much due to language on a completely different level.

Your ideas about official languages and the legal system just arenít the way it works. Thereís nothing any of us can do about that, either. Thatís just the way it is, even Down Under.

Weíve described this adequately already. Please re-read what we posted, and feel free to ask questions if thereís something not clear about it.


Quote:
Originally Posted by eninac_DTS
What is the relevance of that comment?
Pretty much the relevance placed on it by us and others involved. Your opinions about this are a little out of step with that, Iím afraid.


Quote:
Are you saying that because they didn't achieve their objective that they failed to make any impact on society? For someone who writes so eloquently, you sure don't read very well. I said an event occurred (the formation of the feminist movement), society changed (more education & employment for women, lower marriage rates, higher divorce rates), and behaviour has changed as a result of that. The fact that the movement collapsed means nothing to this debate. Pay disparity there may be, but they're not chained to the kitchen sink, resigned to raise children and clean the home. At least now they can get a job.
Nope, thatís not what weíre saying. Your estimation of the impact of the womenís movement is inaccurate. Thereís lots of information out there about it, and most of the stats say pretty much what we suggested: things arenít much better than when we started, except in certain specific areas.

Discrimination based on gender continues to be a vexing problem.


Quote:
Currently there are roles like this; there haven't always been, and not because of any 'primal strategy' but because of changes in the social structure.
I think you missed the point. These roles arenít desirable or supportable. Yes, things are changing, but itís too early to know exactly how the artifact of these increasingly bizarre and inappropriate roles will be interpreted when itís all over.

We have our own ideas, but theyíre conjecture at this point. The fact that the roles we described are based in the primitive strategy isnít subject to much debate, though, nor is that fact that they are largely contrary to the long-term goals of females. Dealing with that contradiction is a part of the picture of the behavior that provides opportunity for the secondary predator.

If you would like to argue the point, youíll have to propose a different derivation, in detail, and be prepared to discuss the details of the currently accepted one.

I should have been more specific about the relative frequency of this sort of thing (females assuming arbitrarily defined roles of the sort you describe). Itís not nearly as common as the normal version, females defining their own role to help them account for their own view of recent behavior related to the primitive strategy.

The perception that overt primary predatory behaviors are common is incorrect. But they are actively being hyped as acceptable, as are the female roles that help support the thin social logic justifying predation. So the perception itself is increasingly common, and information is the only thing we know that can combat that trend.

There arenít actually many successful primary predators out there, and males acting as secondary predators are most often seeking to convert the resulting relationships into long-term pair bonds.

The stats for western countries (i.e., English speaking) are still this: the most common place to meet a mate is through membership in a social organization (like a church or civic league), at school, or at work. Few of these relationships develop immediately; most begin after several months or years of casual acquaintance.

The most significant determinant of long-term success of a relationship is the reason that the contact first occurred. If the purpose of being at the place two people meet is anything other than meeting a potential mate, the average length and perceived quality of the resulting relationship are far higher than for relationships originating with social contact in a context intended for that purpose.


Quote:
Not at all. Society itself will differ. And if you were to expect an old timer, you certainly wouldn't get one, computer programs don't ageÖ
What we stated is just the definition of how the Turing test works. You wonít see the programming, by definition, and itís widely understood that any imitative program would be easily detected.

Thatís what makes Turingís idea relevant to cognitive science, which is, as we said, the actual application.

The description we gave is pretty much the commonly accepted interpretation, but if you want to contribute your own original views of how it would work, jump right in. There are several bulletin boards out there dedicated to serious amateur speculation in cognitive science.


Quote:
For you to stereotype so boldly about genders and behaviours is beyond beliefÖ
You're confused. Scientists studying advanced communication? It's plain stupid.
Not advanced communication, advanced study of ordinary human communication, particularly how and why it fails in ways related to gender.

Most of what weíre describing arenít stereotypes, and donít qualify as such in any appropriate usage. The closest we came to that was describing stereotypical behavior patterns, the exact situation in which the term stereotype applies.

Iím pretty certain weíre not confused about this stuff, and thatís not really subject to your opinion anyway, is it? That would depend on us: not understanding something about it, or incorrectly gauging what we donít yet know.

We canít help that you donít like it, and we certainly sympathize. But the things youíre upset about arenít going to just go away because you donít like them, and they arenít really stupid, either.

The impact on society, and women in particular, is stone cold serious. Understanding these issues is the only thing that can change that. Blind rejection and denial play right to the purpose of the primitive strategy.

As we mentioned already, that reaction is built in, an important part of the bigger picture.

If you decide to look for more information, we wish you good luck. Weíll be happy to answer any questions about the details if they fall under our expertise, or point you in the right direction for stuff that doesnít.

Try finding a copy of Anne Cahillís book. Itís a great start.
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  #33  
Old 11-15-05, 10:17 PM
eninac_DTS eninac_DTS is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stabile
The subject of the thread isnít rape; itís advice to males to help them spot abusive situations.
I don't have a problem with the thread; I have a problem with your post, which did deal with rape.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stabile
We merely pointed out that the potential for abuse will always be far greater for women, at least in our lifetimes, precisely because of the fact that the female version of the primitive strategy implicitly deals with the expectation of behavior that, in our modern social context, is abuse or worse.

There are no comparable built in behaviors in males; accordingly, the potential for abuse is much less.
You didn't call it abuse, you called it rape, but abuse is almost as bad. Also, as an obvious feminist, why do you go for this victim-blaming theory that females expect abusive behaviour? It validates what I said earlier; under such a theory any man can claim that his victim is to blame: she was asking for it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stabile
If you want to play the game weíre involved in, you have to get on board the same boat as everyone else, where the game is played.
What boat is that? An Academic one? Is that where your 35 years of research have taken place? Well, no research goes on for that long without a publication. So far you've tried to swing me over to your "scientific fact" with a referral to a feminist philosopher (hardly scientific fact), so refer me to your book. What's the ISBN? Have you had any medical or scientific journal entries? You must have had something in all that time, no one would financially back 35 years of research for nothing in return.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stabile
Look, this isnít about language on that level
After six posts advocating a flexible definition of the word rape, that is one mighty back-peddle. You claimed that there are scientific and medical definitions to back you up, but as yet I'm still to find a definition that doesn't include violence, and I've searched many dictionaries (including institutional ones), journals and encyclopaedias ó thereís nothing. Actually wikipedia was the only one to mention sociobiological theories on rape, where it was mentioned that none of them are mainstream science.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stabile
Weíve described this adequately already. Please re-read what we posted, and feel free to ask questions if thereís something not clear about it.
That is where the real problem is, you see, I don't care about your theories. What I care about, and have only cared about throughout this entire thread, is that you called me a rapist. Now you have backed down on the definition of the word rape, now that you know you're wrong, claiming it's no longer important ó but it is to me ó why can't you admit that rape only covers violent & forced sex and that I am not a rapist, under any definition?

Do I take action to persuade women to sleep with me? Of course I do. Even taking a shower so my smell doesn't offend them can be described as that. But there is a difference between that and rape, and you need to acknowledge it.
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  #34  
Old 11-16-05, 12:44 AM
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I think since this started as a support thread and has turned a different direction, I believe I will close this and ask for any further discussion/debate to find its way to the Debate Section.

Thank you for your input.
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  #35  
Old 02-01-11, 02:45 PM
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Re: How To Spot An Abuser - For Men

This closure is several year old and I have had a couple request to re-open the thread -Because many of the members of the previous debate no longer post I am going to re-open this thread in hopes it can be turned back onto a thread of support - I don;t care what research says where males get abused also and they deserve no less support than females dealing with the same issues
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  #36  
Old 02-01-11, 08:29 PM
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Re: How To Spot An Abuser - For Men

Theres still the stereotype that if males report abuse it will be construed or looked at them as if they are weaklings.Not saying thats the case just saying its like people still think people w depression are crazy or people w adhd are idiots are slow etc.I believe thats why its not reported,my friend from work was telling me this too,his gf was acting crazy and I told him to call the police if she starts whigging out and getting violent and he stated just that what I wrote on the above paragraph.
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  #37  
Old 02-03-11, 10:34 AM
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Re: How To Spot An Abuser - For Men

This is a very relevant topic, as many ADD people, including myself, have gone through spousal abuse. It makes us confused, and I thought it was all my fault. My wife knew this, and she took advantage of it. And she will play the victim in front of others.

Now that I realized it was not all my fault, the abuse kind of stopped. But passive things like hiding her money from me continues. I do not need her money, so be it.
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Old 02-03-11, 11:05 AM
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Re: How To Spot An Abuser - For Men

Thanks for re-opening it like I asked

I'm not sure if I shared this story on these forums before, but I knew a guy who's wife was physically abusive to him for years, and he ignored it. One day she hit him over the head with an aluminum baseball bat, and he has permanent physical damage from it even now. Abuse against men is not as common, but absolutely NOT something to be ignored!
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  #39  
Old 02-05-11, 02:01 AM
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Re: How To Spot An Abuser - For Men

Thanks to everybody for adding to this post, it is very useful.
Only thing I may add to it, is that men have more muscle mass and are often the 'bread winners' after an addition to the family.
While both men and women can equally be abusers, women are easier to 'trap' with the addition of kids.
There is not a lot you can do with a new born and a spouse who has taken over access and control to everything, except for leave it all behind. I do not believe it is a choice somebody would want to make.Immaturity also plays a part.
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  #40  
Old 02-05-11, 02:13 AM
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Re: How To Spot An Abuser - For Men

Fear is a good sign that something is wrong.
You can only try to communicate so much, then you realize you are not communicating to somebody who cares about you. Anybody can be an abuser, men or women, equally.
When you have to sleep in the basement, are told to get out and leave your new born and other child(not his) that he has manipulated by not allowing you access to your car, and then saying you are incompetent cause you have no money to provide for them and gives you the phone number to welfare, repeatedly,and tells you to get out, there is no love. Children will learn that this is 'normal' treatment for a father and a partner. Not to mention, if he is using your credit, not paying utility bills and lying, you will wind up supporting yourself, your children, your bankruptcy attorney's and needing a co-signer to ever leave. Abusers will ruin your ability to live without them, one way or the other.To stay is to sign yourself off for dead.
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Old 04-01-11, 07:56 AM
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Re: How To Spot An Abuser - For Men

Double standards I do not know. But when i went to catholic charities right after a seperation from my female spouse I was told by their representatives "sorry" we just do not have as many plans for men as woman ...Do they not receive funds from the Govt? Our democratic government that supports equal representation? Should the funds be dispersed equally to all those in need?....

Men are not going to get equal representation until we speak up and band together. Simple. Oh and the press are they going to help Please. I am not an expert on abuse but being a male and having been abused I know I cannot be alone. BIG PROBLEM... What is abuse? Define it ! Is it the same for men and woman in the courts of law. ALL abuse is wrong and should not be tolerated! If a man works, controls all the finances and the woman stays at home to raze the kidz he is a scumbag and she is deemed suppressed. But if a woman works, controls all the finances and the man stays home to raze the children he is considered week and lazy and she is considered a progressive woman.

What sells more headlines, gets more attention of sympathy. A once outwardly pretty woman with a broken nose and black eye caused by an abusive spouse with a baseball bat or a handsome black man with a broken nose and a black eye caused by a abusive spouse with a baseball bat. First learned response when seeing the pics OH my god the poor white woman look what her spouse did to her. Second response look at that black guy what did he do to deserve that! Do not lie I have done it. I was trained to. BOTH ARE HERENDOUS Crimes and should be treated equally... But they are not.

Interesting I wonder in all the classes they now have in school (Grade thru college) regarding abuse or tolerance if equal time is spent on all gender abuse. Are the same number of pictures of women being abused shown equal the same number as men being abused. What about psychological abuse is that fully explained equally. Hmm are there more woman or men teachers in our public school system today does that increase the bias?...At a college in my town they have WOMAN empowermeant day Why not have MEN empowermeant day?. Can u see the headlines....... Pleaseeeee. Guess what men we need to get together and yes go after the politicians... Hmmm the woman have as they should have but is the see saw now swayed. Hmm Should we blame an american born child of German descent for all the atrocities of Hitler.

I am wondering per this quote from article in the NEW YORK TIMES IN 2010

"Women have represented about 57 percent of enrollments at American colleges since at least 2000, according to a recent report by the American Council on Education. Researchers there cite several reasons: women tend to have higher grades; men tend to drop out in disproportionate numbers; and female enrollment skews higher among older students, low-income students, and black and Hispanic students."

If woman are more educated and are "gaining ground" in the corporate boardrooms and political arenas can they also be equally responsible for the chaos in this world today as well or is it just the males fault. Yes we have a male president but I often wonder as his wife is educated does her role as a partner in there relationship have inference on the decisions he makes as president. After all if he were to be politically correct they are equals and he is here to serve all the people of the united states. So when he decided to go to war in Egypt was the decision his and his wifes as well not to go before congress and seek the representatives of the people there opinion.

Does one having ADHD and being of male persuasion have a higher rate of being abused. Do we have such a fuzzy and distorted view we do not even know we are being abused. If we are at a learned disadvantage are we more prone to the abuse of the educated who are potentially more powerful due to there education level and political prowess? What about over 50, 60 and 70 year olds. Are these men prone to greater abuse as they may be extremely under educated and technologically disadvantaged?

Men and supporters of ridding all abuse...Please chime in.
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  #42  
Old 04-07-11, 08:34 AM
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Re: How To Spot An Abuser - For Men

spot on. i recognize every single one of those points. its hard to see when you truly love someone, especially having "social and mental disorders" and especially when she has similar disorders. when you are beaten mentally, and try to escape and are chastised for trying to protect yourself. some women are used to abuse, either from themselves or a partner, and when they find a new partner, they provoke him to the breaking point to prove that no one is trustworthy. it is a twisted mind, and one we try to fix, to save someone. but where do you draw the line between saving yourself and saving another? i have asked that of myself many times, and sacrificed everything to save the other person, until it nearly killed me. and what if she still takes her own life? there is no answer.

g'dam, i could go on for days. oh the stories i have...enough to fill volumes.
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Old 04-15-11, 12:29 PM
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Re: How To Spot An Abuser - For Men

There is a great NY channel 7 6 minute snip it about men being abused and how it is accepted... It is a must see.... I tried to cut and paste but could not. I found it on a forum called ptsdforum.org at the top of a heading they have a tab called media click it I do not think u need to be a member in this sight to view the you tube clip. I think this is the first one at top left that comes up...again with the giant channel 7 logo as the face pic for the video.

It is a show that they create events to see how people react... OMG not one person came to the aid of the guy getting pummeled by a woman. I think the commentator said over 160 people passed by and not one offered assistance. Finally one woman in a group of 3 finally did say something but the results of this video speaks volumes about how things are not equal. The excuse even by a male cop for not helping was "I thought he probably deserved it". As a male if we are so naive to think that the landscape of our society has way gone to the other side this video will wake u up... FTR all abuse is bad PERIOD.. Talk about reverse discrimination... not just for the politically active
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  #44  
Old 04-16-11, 08:51 AM
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Re: How To Spot An Abuser - For Men

Hello,
It's been a long time since I've posted and I happened to notice this one. I can't help but bring up the word Narcissist. If anyone here doesn't know what one is, look it up and it may describe to you very well someone you might know. My daughter is in a situation right now that is causing her a great deal of pain and I am in pain right along with her because I love her dearly and just don't know what the solution is. A year or so ago my daughter became close friends with two other people with ADD, one is a guy and one a girl. The girl was my daughter's friend and introduced her to the guy. The guy initially liked my daughter, she wasn't interested but remained friends with the two. After about a year my daughter realized she liked this guy but over that year he became inmeshed deeply with my daughter's friend. Turns out my daughters friend is a what looks to be a Narcissist. She will not go out with this guy, plays head games and controls him. He tried to have a relationship with my daughter but this girl totally sabatoged it by drawing him closer to her again. She also touches him inappropriately. She seems to drain the energy out of wherever she goes but has a group of admirers anyway. She wears no makeup, cuts her hair really short and dresses like a guy. She claims to be bi. Her behavior is very strange and she has hurt my daughter numerous times. After much confusion and much crying, my daughter has finally had enough. She is going to her H.S. prom with this guy but I think she is finally realizing that as long as this girl is in his life he will never have a normal relationship with a girl. He accepts a half relationship with someone who is incapable of love, will not go out with him, demeans him and manipulates him. He is so addicted to her that he is completely blind. My daughter is a beautiful loving girl, though she does have ADD and some co-dependency issues(as he does). Even with her issues and his, they actually had a wonderful weekend together last week until this girl came over our house and destroyed everything, threw herself on him and then asked my daughter if she was jealous. Last night my daughter refused to see her or take her calls. I don't want this girl in our lives anymore and neither does my daughter but she truly cares about this guy. I thought about telling him what type of person he is involved with but it may destroy my daughter's friendship with him. I think my daughter finally realizes that as long as this girl is in his life there is no chance she will ever be able to have anything more then a friendship with him. He was with this girl again last night. She is really coming on strong lately to be sure she has wiped out any chance of my daughter and he developing a closer relationship. The whole thing is so convoluted. I just don't know what to do for my daughter. She's lost 5 lbs so far and so have I. I just so much want her to be happy. My poor husband has been so neglected as a result of all this. I truly could use some advise from someone that may have known of or been in a situation like this. It's so sad........Thanks, Dee
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Old 04-25-11, 09:50 PM
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Re: How To Spot An Abuser - For Men

Dee,

I'd suggest a stronger course of action. Would this be my daughter in question, I'd advise her to openly pose the "me vs her" choice to this young man [diplomatically/gently, as much as possible, yet w/ full disclosure and communication], and, if not seeing a definitive resolution within a reasonable period of time, to look elsewhere. (Ok, polyamorous relationship could also be considered theoretically; however, considering the unhealthy situation you described, limited acceptance of poly lifestyle amongst general population, and general rarity of successful poly arrangements, you can disregard this bracketed comment-inside-comment).

Additionally, you did mention the HS prom. If the participants are going to geographically dispersed universities in the fall, perhaps you could just wait for the situation to resolve itself.

I realize that this advice may come across as callous, and is also something easier said than done. However, one needs to strive and weigh things rationally, and cut their losses when deemed so. Ask yourself - which course(s) of action may: (a) drag out the situation with no obvious end in sight, extending the suffering of those involved, or (b) reach some definitive conclusion?

Last edited by anotheradder; 04-25-11 at 09:51 PM.. Reason: formatting
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