Non-ADD to ADD Communication gap - an ADD perspective

[chain]

Originally Posted by devoted

Does anyone know of any pamplets or books for the ADD person to read on our behalf? I mean letting them know what they are doing to the NON ADD spouse/partner?

I was talking to someone with ADD who had similar problems with her spouse, and she said basically their marriage was over.. because she was FINE..... she didn't have the problem, just other people have the problem with her and the way she runs her life. SHE was happy being herself. HOWEVER, her marriage was on the rocks and until she read about the other problems people have dealing with ADD... from our perspective, she had no idea.

She is now trying medication and things are better.

Does anyone know of any written information on this subject? I am going to try and get titles from her..... but I wanted to ask here too if anyone knew anything. She wanted to send me hers but I declined stating I didn't want to take anything she needed.

HELP ..... please.

I am an ADDer. My marriage did not make it... I have lots of new perspectives on ADD and how we view things differently.

ADD is not a disorder but a "minority cognitive type". To bring it into perspective ADDers have the illusion that they understand the culture in which they life...but they do not. I have absolutely no idea of "my place" in this culture. I also do not communicate for the same reasons and with the same context as non-ADDers do.

Take a "mixed culture" marriage and multiply it by 10 and that is what you are dealing with. Us ADDers have our own "personal cultures"...When we do not understand this...it leads to problems...we assume you share our world view..and you are probably thinking "what the hell is she talking about?"

Funny thing is: ADDers are very similar in how we end up constructing our world views. Read the thread on here about internal vs. external reference. This is the pamphlet you need. Share that and this message with her...it may start making some sense.

I am thinking of writing "Culture Shock USA for ADDers", lol!
Send me a private message and I will give you some basic understandings...

I don't think non-ADD therapists can even begin to grasp how different our thinking is and most ADDers don't understand how different your thinking is...I hope we can bridge the gap

(Medication will only go so far... if it is depressants...they can be really bad for an ADDer...not always, but watch out)

[crime_scene]

It is an interesting point, in past relationships my ADD friend has indicated that in many ways he has no idea where he is with a relationship except by clues his partner gives him..like if she calls him sweetheart he assumes they are this close, if she kisses him, he assumes they are then more close, but does not seem to have internal feelings of this.

It has been very disappointing I think for him in the past to see the other person leave and not really get why or what he could have done to fix it.

two different perspectives, for sure.

[chain]

Originally Posted by crime_scene

It is an interesting point, in past relationships my ADD friend has indicated that in many ways he has no idea where he is with a relationship except by clues his partner gives him..like if she calls him sweetheart he assumes they are this close, if she kisses him, he assumes they are then more close, but does not seem to have internal feelings of this.

It has been very disappointing I think for him in the past to see the other person leave and not really get why or what he could have done to fix it.

two different perspectives, for sure.

Yes, that is why we need to recognize how we communicate differently. Our common assumptions are completely different. Most ADDers cannot tell a goodbye kiss from an "I love you" kiss.

Communication needs to be very clear and honest... It is the equivalant of talking to a foreigner who has a grasp of the language but does not understand the culture. Even "white lies" can be extremely harmful in a relationship with an ADDer...leading to blown trust (actually it is the "White lies" that do us in).

I personally have only "felt" love with other ADDers... I know non-ADDers love me...but I don't understand how they show it. Their way of showing love matches patterns set forth in the society that show most people how to show love. I have learned those second hand as an adult, not firsthand as a child.

I will give you a simple example:
In our culture, material things mean very much... giving a woman flowers or jewelry is an accepted form of showing love (Even if the women does not like flowers or jewelry... she will see it as a sign of love.)

Most ADD women would see it as a sign that they are "liked". (Most ADDers are in a constant state of giving things to people they like...this causes miscommunication the other way arround)

The best way for a non_ADDer to tap into this with an ADDer is to ask them...what makes you feel loved? This is what I do when I am showing love.

I have always had (and many other ADDers I have talked to have as well) a perception that people feel love only for selfish reasons with tons of expectations. This is due to the intense nature of culture building through relationships in the majority cognition.

In external reference, there seems to be reading and displaying of "social glue" that is vital. In its very shallow level... it would be the guy who has the nice car to show that he is an a good position in the society (I call these displays "sticky bits") On a deeper level, it would be believing what a doctor tells you because he is a "doctor"...Titles and possesions are important for this purpose in the majarity cognition... (even battling against posessions and titles is a sign of position in the society or group)

So... by extension... asking an ADD woman for marriage would be a great sign of love from the "ER" viewpoint. Wife is a title that shows that she has a place in the culture and a husband that loves her. The ring is the possesion that goes with it...again a sign of love for most non-ADDers...but probably not most ADD women.

So what do you give to an ADDer? Clear communication and love without expectation. This is really tough for a non-ADDer to do...It is just as difficult for an ADD woman to find "her place" in a relationship. We don't have that cognitive nature I have termed ERHM. (Externally referenced hierarchical mind/memory). We have IRCM (Internally referenced contextual mind/memory).

So the woman that said "their marriage was over.. because she was FINE..... she didn't have the problem, just other people have the problem with her and the way she runs her life. SHE was happy being herself." is right. It is the other people that have "the problem"...she is not property and although not meeting people's expectations is painful, she needs to take care of herself... Other people have problems with her... not her with them. She does not understand why they have so many expectations. (this is where it would help for her to learn why they have these expectations)

Sometimes the love you need to give an ADDer is letting go....
Sometimes it is holding her really close and telling her how much you love her and who she is...and being honest and clear...and letting go.

I bet this sounds like bunk...it is just a matter of perspective...vastly different perspective. Think of ADDers as ultra foreigners...and you get the picture

Ultra foreigners but we DO have a role in overall human society, though...

[crime_scene]

Actually...I kind of got a hit with that one...it seems my friend has been telling me little bits of things all along and I didn't know what to make of them. They seemed like little isolated bits of crystal and I couldn't understand howcum I didn't GET it.

I remember the words, I can repeat them, I can turn them over and watch little bits of light filter through them, but get it? Its like I'm missing the rosetta stone.

What is really hard is when you know that you can't rely on your own instincts (learned in the "average" culture) because you know they aren't hitting the spot, so you kind of feel like you're swimming upstream.

Your explanation has really helped me get closer to understanding some of this complex relationship stuff.

Two questions:

1) how does an ADD person demonstrate love in their behaviour, if giving things signifies "like"?

2) what does "letting go" look like? e.g. what kind of things would a non-ADD person stop doing or start doing that would demonstrate to the ADD person they are letting go in that loving way you mentioned?




(ps one should never need to assert that ADD folks have a role, EVERYONE has a role )

(oh...or I could have misunderstood that )

CS

[chain]

Originally Posted by crime_scene

1) how does an ADD person demonstrate love in their behaviour, if giving things signifies "like"?

2) what does "letting go" look like? e.g. what kind of things would a non-ADD person stop doing or start doing that would demonstrate to the ADD person they are letting go in that loving way you mentioned?




(ps one should never need to assert that ADD folks have a role, EVERYONE has a role )

(oh...or I could have misunderstood that )

CS

Well, your answers are...
1) Ask him...In my case, I feel most loved when I get little things that show someone is thinking about me...not for their material sense but their thoughtfulness sense. I feel loved when someone asks me what I think or what I want in a relationship. Honesty is a big one... even somewhat painful honesty. Oh yes, I feel loved when someone forgives me my bouts of hyper focus. I feel really loved when the person doing the loving really takes care of themselves well emotionally. By our very nature of internal reference...it does depend on the individual...

2) Letting go is a tough one for all people (including ADDers)... but I think it is needed with an ADDer. It means dropping all assumptions of what role this person must take in your life for you to love them. You can only show it by doing it. Unconditional love (with safe guards built in for your well being... Never be afraid to drop contact if someone is being abusive)


The role we have is a universal role instead of a cultural one... We just do not fit well into the culture, but lots of us drive it...it is a strange paradox.

[crime_scene]

1) ok, this is good. most of what you said is same for nonADDrs I know, but now I'm curious: what do you define as "taking care of oneself emotionally"? It sounds a bit isolating and lonely.

2) do you think of love may be like a sort of contract where things must be done in order to receive love? this sounds a bit like something my friend has said about too many demands before receiving love in the past.

I did not understand this exactly or maybe it seemed too second nature to me and I was worried about it.

If I'm "with" someone I do have expectations e.g. I would expect that my wishes and desires are held in some regard and that I be treated in a caring and respectful manner and that I am able to assure/reassure/confirm that my partner is interested in me. There is some overlap there of course and it does depend on the person. In short, I expect that if my partner loves me/cares for me, he shows it in a number of ways through his behaviour.

Is this what you meant by #2?

[chain]

Originally Posted by crime_scene

1) ok, this is good. most of what you said is same for nonADDrs I know, but now I'm curious: what do you define as "taking care of oneself emotionally"? It sounds a bit isolating and lonely.

2) do you think of love may be like a sort of contract where things must be done in order to receive love? this sounds a bit like something my friend has said about too many demands before receiving love in the past.

I did not understand this exactly or maybe it seemed too second nature to me and I was worried about it.

If I'm "with" someone I do have expectations e.g. I would expect that my wishes and desires are held in some regard and that I be treated in a caring and respectful manner and that I am able to assure/reassure/confirm that my partner is interested in me. There is some overlap there of course and it does depend on the person. In short, I expect that if my partner loves me/cares for me, he shows it in a number of ways through his behaviour.

Is this what you meant by #2?

1) Yes, but I have rarely experienced that...it is pretty rare from either nonADDer or ADDer. The culture does not promote it... only relationship self-help guides. But this is for me. >>"taking care of oneself emotionally"? It sounds a bit isolating and lonely.<< This is the conflict between internal and external. Internal needs to stand on their own and learn to take care of their own emotional needs...we cannot rely on others to do this... Once we can do this, it is the opposite of lonely. I would rather "own" my own car rather than leasing it. You see if I am emotionally not "needing" another person then they can get beautiful love from me without expectation. If I meet the same kind of person, I can get that kind of love back. Love is not transactional for us. When it is, it can be unhealthy. We also tend to live in the moment.

2) Yes, Externally referenced people *seem* to view love in that manner (realize, I do not understand it from that perspective). This may be due to some cultural notions of 2 halves coming together to make a whole. I think most internally referenced people are "a whole" already (no not a-hole ;-)) and cannot "give themselves up" even if they want to. The expectations are overwhelming for me in relationships...I start to lose myself and soon become mentally unhealthy..it shows up as "borderline and bipolar" behaviors in me.

Finally "If I'm "with" someone I do have expectations e.g. I would expect that my wishes and desires are held in some regard and that I be treated in a caring and respectful manner and that I am able to assure/reassure/confirm that my partner is interested in me. There is some overlap there of course and it does depend on the person. In short, I expect that if my partner loves me/cares for me, he shows it in a number of ways through his behaviour."

Well... this is the problem, is it not...he probably does not feel loved by you because he has an entirely different set of "expectations". Taking care of yourself means... don't have a relationship with a person who cannot meet your needs OR work out a way to meet in between so that you meet each other's needs.

When I say that ADD is not just a deficit of attention and is a different cognition entirely...you really have to change your view.

I have met fellow CM people in othr cultures who are more like me than men in my own culture. I work with and African American woman who is CM (ADD) and she is more like me than a white male of my age, experience and social status...in fact she is more like me than my own brother...that should clue you in to the massive difference we are talking about. I am one of the first people to talk about it in these terms... so it may seem strange.. but I think you can see how valid this understanding is.

With your friend (I bet he won't let you call him boyfriend)...communicate, communicate, communicate...bridge the gap, it can be done but you both have to work at it.

I really would love to hear how it goes and I am always willing to help...if I can

[crime_scene]

Thanks chain,

This has been a real eye opener, down my path of eye openers. It would be so much easier not to miss someone if you lived in the moment, almost a bonus.

Its a very complicated situation, so for now he is a friend. That may never change or it might, I don't know. He's worth a lot.

And there is so much to chew over and digest from this practical information that I feel decades ahead of my previous thinking.

(going to mull and sort now)

[chain]

Originally Posted by crime_scene

Thanks chain,

This has been a real eye opener, down my path of eye openers. It would be so much easier not to miss someone if you lived in the moment, almost a bonus.

Its a very complicated situation, so for now he is a friend. That may never change or it might, I don't know. He's worth a lot.

And there is so much to chew over and digest from this practical information that I feel decades ahead of my previous thinking.

(going to mull and sort now)

You sure *seem* CM to me Probably not ADD... Very few "HM" people would find such strong interest in this... and due to "external reference" they would most likely disregard this point of view because I am not a "specialist" in this field.

If you are internally referenced, you may not even realize it. I am just starting to understand how little I truly understand about the culture at large (I always thought I understood it...and I do, but on intellectual terms)

You seem to have the hyperfocus component. Do you feel focus shifts between thoughts? Connections with ADD or creatives is also a sign. (Although HM people can be creative, the potentiality is not as high).

There is one interesting group: very physically attractive CM people who, although internally referenced, are accepted due to their "beauty" by the externally referenced culture. Because of this, they often don't sense the differences. Talk about bulls in a china shop, lol!

[crime_scene]

well, if its any help, you had credentials because you are ADD, so you have practical experience which was what I was looking for to help understand my dear but not-too-chatty-about-that-kind-of-stuff friend.

? not sure about focus shift thingies. All I can say about focus is that when I am very interested in something, it is almost painful not to continue to think about it or work on it. But lots of people have that which doesn't of course mean they are ADD ish?

I guess the bull/china folks might include those in the entertainment industry for example.

[chain]

Originally Posted by crime_scene

well, if its any help, you had credentials because you are ADD, so you have practical experience which was what I was looking for to help understand my dear but not-too-chatty-about-that-kind-of-stuff friend.

? not sure about focus shift thingies. All I can say about focus is that when I am very interested in something, it is almost painful not to continue to think about it or work on it. But lots of people have that which doesn't of course mean they are ADD ish?

I guess the bull/china folks might include those in the entertainment industry for example.

Yeah... you really are probably CM Maybe not....

>>All I can say about focus is that when I am very interested in something, it is almost painful not to continue to think about it or work on it. But lots of people have that which doesn't of course mean they are ADD ish? <<

No, most people do not have this... a hobby is one thing... hyperfocus is "is almost painful not to continue" I am saying CM not ADD... ADD is when CM clashes with society, it does not always do this... I am not sure in your case... Read the internal vs external reference thing.

A sign would be being tomboyish (ie. you do not fit gender roles very well)
Another would be having a strong personal dialect (lots of words that you coin) and a dislike of fads.

Besides, you like elipses (My theory is that they are written signs of the focus shift thingy )

[crime_scene]

Oy.

Ok. I'll try again but it was a bit longish and erm...sleep-inducing last time I tried, no offence!!!!! Maybe I have a better reason to this time.

elipses...yummmy...

[chain]

Originally Posted by crime_scene

Oy.

Ok. I'll try again but it was a bit longish and erm...sleep-inducing last time I tried, no offence!!!!! Maybe I have a better reason to this time.

elipses...yummmy...

Hah! outed you ;-)

No offence taken! Good nightime reading fer ya...I am working on jazzing it up though! I am going to include a section on dental hygeine for llamas!

[ladyofpassionz]

This is my first time here...I'm dating a man with adhd..I also have 2 son's with Autism and Asperger's syndrome...Reading all these postings and messages has scared me alittle. He is a wonderful man and he seems to always put me first...he's always thinking about me and my needs..Will that all change one day??..I care about this man very deeply and I think that we are good for each other. I would love to chat with someone one on one about this...I don't know how this site works so, plz be patient with me

[Nova]

Welcome, ladyofpassionz.

There is a plethora of articles and resources on this site, in conjunction to the posts made by members, that you'll find helpful.

They're all listed under the separate categories, on here...sometimes referred to as 'sections'.

You have the capability of reading all information, on each section, up to the 'beginning' time span. (There's a pull down menu, that's at the bottom of the page).

Or you can use the 'search' button, in the top menu bar, for specific searches.


Best wishes,

Nova