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  #31  
Old 11-29-16, 12:40 PM
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Re: "unconditional parenting" by alfie kohn

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lunacie View Post
Actually kids with autism may not be ABLE to conform on some things.
They have a deficit in their ability to adapt. Given time and practice, some
can adapt to what seems illogical to them. But when hit with a new paradox
they often become stuck.

This can also be true of kids with adhd, although to a lesser degree. The
ability to adapt and change and go-with-the-flow just doesn't work right.

Edit to share this link: https://iancommunity.org/ssc/autism-adaptive-skills
If you read my post I was talking about ADHD and Dyslexic kids...autism is an entirely different spectrum.

I can't tell you how many time I have heard something like "he CAN'T do the project that way" or "he shouldn't have to do the project that way". It may take an extra 9 steps but attempting to conform would be more helpful than saying he is ADHD or dyslexic so he CAN'T conform. Will he do it the same way 90% of other people did it, NOPE. Not even a shot at doing things the way most people do, but it isn't impossible and it is something that should be strived for in my opinion.

I have had multiple dealings with Autistic children as a camp counselor. Some had Asperger syndrome, and some got VERY upset by what appeared to me to be normal every day things, like a candle, or we were warned not to touch the child unless they were in immediate danger. I am by no means an expert. However, in my opinion, ADHD and Dyslexic people see the world in a different way, but they are in THIS world. Through strategies, medicine, and or other adjustments most of the time conformity can happen with most academic things. Conversely Autistic people, depending on the level of Autism, are actually in another world. Those are two very different categories.
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Old 11-29-16, 12:55 PM
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Re: "unconditional parenting" by alfie kohn

Quote:
Originally Posted by Caco3girl View Post
If you read my post I was talking about ADHD and Dyslexic kids...autism is an entirely different spectrum.

I can't tell you how many time I have heard something like "he CAN'T do the project that way" or "he shouldn't have to do the project that way". It may take an extra 9 steps but attempting to conform would be more helpful than saying he is ADHD or dyslexic so he CAN'T conform. Will he do it the same way 90% of other people did it, NOPE. Not even a shot at doing things the way most people do, but it isn't impossible and it is something that should be strived for in my opinion.

I have had multiple dealings with Autistic children as a camp counselor. Some had Asperger syndrome, and some got VERY upset by what appeared to me to be normal every day things, like a candle, or we were warned not to touch the child unless they were in immediate danger. I am by no means an expert. However, in my opinion, ADHD and Dyslexic people see the world in a different way, but they are in THIS world. Through strategies, medicine, and or other adjustments most of the time conformity can happen with most academic things. Conversely Autistic people, depending on the level of Autism, are actually in another world. Those are two very different categories.
Are you confused or is it just me? You say the child should try to conform,
but then you s/he probably won't be able to do it the same way as others.

I do think the impairments that come with adhd and dyslexia (and discalculia)
are just as real as those that come with autism, and after spending the first
50+ years of my life being told I was a failure because I couldn't do some of
the things others do in the same way others do them I would just hope kids
today aren't being shamed that way.

Would you tell a child with a club foot that s/he should conform in phys ed
class by running laps and playing kick ball?

My daughter, who shares discalculia with her daughter and I both, shared this
blog with me recently: If you can't learn math maybe it's not your fault ...


To follow that clue, maybe if you struggle with social skills it's Not Your Fault.
__________________
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-RUSSELL A. BARKLEY, PH.D.


As far as I know, there is nothing positive about ADHD that people can't have w out ADHD. ~ ADD me

Last edited by namazu; 11-29-16 at 01:03 PM.. Reason: Replaced link to prohibited site (selling stuff + blog w/o link back to ADDF) with print-friendly version.
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  #33  
Old 11-29-16, 03:36 PM
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Re: "unconditional parenting" by alfie kohn

Quote:
Originally Posted by Caco3girl View Post
I have had multiple dealings with Autistic children as a camp counselor. Some had Asperger syndrome, and some got VERY upset by what appeared to me to be normal every day things, like a candle, or we were warned not to touch the child unless they were in immediate danger. I am by no means an expert. However, in my opinion, ADHD and Dyslexic people see the world in a different way, but they are in THIS world. Through strategies, medicine, and or other adjustments most of the time conformity can happen with most academic things. Conversely Autistic people, depending on the level of Autism, are actually in another world. Those are two very different categories.
Can you please explain what you mean when you say autistic people are actually in another world?
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  #34  
Old 11-29-16, 03:37 PM
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Re: "unconditional parenting" by alfie kohn

Quote:
Originally Posted by Caco3girl View Post
I can't tell you how many time I have heard something like "he CAN'T do the project that way" or "he shouldn't have to do the project that way". It may take an extra 9 steps but attempting to conform would be more helpful than saying he is ADHD or dyslexic so he CAN'T conform. Will he do it the same way 90% of other people did it, NOPE. Not even a shot at doing things the way most people do, but it isn't impossible and it is something that should be strived for in my opinion.
Attempting to conform is not a bad thing-not being able to is another thing. My kids all have had different accommodations with their IEP/504's. Some were things like extra time on tests or projects, verbal instructions differently, special paper due to dysgraphia/dyslexia, certain types of pens or folders. My son had OT and PT until 10th grade- his phys ed accommodations were that he wasnt graded on standard sports things like goals or layups- effort was given more weight.


Quote:
However, in my opinion, ADHD and Dyslexic people see the world in a different way, but they are in THIS world. Through strategies, medicine, and or other adjustments most of the time conformity can happen with most academic things. Conversely Autistic people, depending on the level of Autism, are actually in another world. Those are two very different categories.
Agree with you here on those differences. I have no issue making my kids try everything and anything the "standard"way-but I cant see the point in not having them try it a different way when they cant.
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  #35  
Old 11-29-16, 04:32 PM
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Re: "unconditional parenting" by alfie kohn

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lunacie View Post
Are you confused or is it just me? You say the child should try to conform,
but then you s/he probably won't be able to do it the same way as others.

I do think the impairments that come with adhd and dyslexia (and discalculia)
are just as real as those that come with autism, and after spending the first
50+ years of my life being told I was a failure because I couldn't do some of
the things others do in the same way others do them I would just hope kids
today aren't being shamed that way.

Would you tell a child with a club foot that s/he should conform in phys ed
class by running laps and playing kick ball?

My daughter, who shares discalculia with her daughter and I both, shared this
blog with me recently: If you can't learn math maybe it's not your fault ...


To follow that clue, maybe if you struggle with social skills it's Not Your Fault.
My son has ADHD and I am dyslexic, and while we can NOT approach certain academic things in the same way we CAN still do them and in a way a teacher finds appropriate. The very first point I was making.....WAYYYYYY up there.....is that some parents are sooo busy yelling "he's different, he has XYZ, he doesn't have to do it YOUR way"...is not the best approach. I wish more parents were of the mindset, how can my child work within the system rather than the mindset I see so often of "my child doesn't HAVE to work within the system."

Obviously some things are just not possible, such as a club footed person running laps, however, an adaptation would be a club footed person doing laps on a scooter, or in a wheel chair or using another tool to perform the function.

Perfect example, I can NOT tell counter clockwise and clockwise, it's a total lost cause. Well in Organic Chemistry the way a molecule turns indicates what type of molecule it is, you HAVE to be able to tell clockwise and counter clockwise. As the teacher went over this I became upset, then more upset, then saw my whole future going down the tubes because I couldn't tell them apart. I went to the support office in tears and my case worker said "We have seen this before, it will be fine", he drew me a clock with red arrows going one way and green arrows going to other way and then color coded which was which. He didn't say "You can't do that, you are dyslexic, I will get you exempted from this part of the test"...which is where I see many parents heads now a days....they don't try to adapt, they just fight whatever it is that causes the glitch.
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Old 11-29-16, 06:36 PM
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Re: "unconditional parenting" by alfie kohn

Quote:
Originally Posted by Caco3girl View Post
My son has ADHD and I am dyslexic, and while we can NOT approach certain academic things in the same way we CAN still do them and in a way a teacher finds appropriate. The very first point I was making.....WAYYYYYY up there.....is that some parents are sooo busy yelling "he's different, he has XYZ, he doesn't have to do it YOUR way"...is not the best approach. I wish more parents were of the mindset, how can my child work within the system rather than the mindset I see so often of "my child doesn't HAVE to work within the system."

Obviously some things are just not possible, such as a club footed person running laps, however, an adaptation would be a club footed person doing laps on a scooter, or in a wheel chair or using another tool to perform the function.

Perfect example, I can NOT tell counter clockwise and clockwise, it's a total lost cause. Well in Organic Chemistry the way a molecule turns indicates what type of molecule it is, you HAVE to be able to tell clockwise and counter clockwise. As the teacher went over this I became upset, then more upset, then saw my whole future going down the tubes because I couldn't tell them apart. I went to the support office in tears and my case worker said "We have seen this before, it will be fine", he drew me a clock with red arrows going one way and green arrows going to other way and then color coded which was which. He didn't say "You can't do that, you are dyslexic, I will get you exempted from this part of the test"...which is where I see many parents heads now a days....they don't try to adapt, they just fight whatever it is that causes the glitch.
Thank you for explaining further. Where is it that you are seeing parents say
these things?

On this forum we're more likely to discuss various accomodations for doing
things in a way that will work better (not work harder) than in gaining an
exemption for our kids to not have to do them at all.
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  #37  
Old 11-30-16, 08:37 AM
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Re: "unconditional parenting" by alfie kohn

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Originally Posted by BellaVita View Post
Can you please explain what you mean when you say autistic people are actually in another world?
Sure, let me start by saying it wasn't meant as a derogatory statement. It's been my experience when talking and working with most autistic children that drawing them into a conversation or showing them how to do something...well...they just aren't really WITH me. They visit my world for brief times but often it's like they are seeing things and perceiving things that I am not. i.e. in another world.
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Old 11-30-16, 08:42 AM
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Re: "unconditional parenting" by alfie kohn

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lunacie View Post
Thank you for explaining further. Where is it that you are seeing parents say
these things?

On this forum we're more likely to discuss various accommodations for doing
things in a way that will work better (not work harder) than in gaining an
exemption for our kids to not have to do them at all.
I've spoken to several parents in my area that have children with ADHD or other issues that impede their learning in some way. I have seen time and time again that they call a 504 or an IEP meeting to eliminate a standard, rather than trying to work WITHIN the standard.

A good example is that in 9th grade literature 20% of your final grade is based on a standardized test. One mother, who has 4 Special Education children, called an IEP meeting where she explained that it was unreasonable for her child's grade to depend on a standardized test and she wanted that standard eliminated. The panel tried to work with her to determine accommodations that would help her kid like having the passages read to him, extended time...etc. However, she was firm that her child was unable to perform on a test like that and it should be eliminated for him.
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Old 11-30-16, 11:40 AM
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Re: "unconditional parenting" by alfie kohn

Quote:
Originally Posted by Caco3girl View Post
I've spoken to several parents in my area that have children with ADHD or other issues that impede their learning in some way. I have seen time and time again that they call a 504 or an IEP meeting to eliminate a standard, rather than trying to work WITHIN the standard.

A good example is that in 9th grade literature 20% of your final grade is based on a standardized test. One mother, who has 4 Special Education children, called an IEP meeting where she explained that it was unreasonable for her child's grade to depend on a standardized test and she wanted that standard eliminated. The panel tried to work with her to determine accommodations that would help her kid like having the passages read to him, extended time...etc. However, she was firm that her child was unable to perform on a test like that and it should be eliminated for him.
I think if there is an equal viable way to test in lit, it should be considered. My son had a scribe and oral instructions due to dysgraphia and dyslexia- this helped out with tests. Although IMO all standardized tests should be eliminated because I dont think there is a standard way for anyone, adhd or not to demonstrate what they learned in that way. I have a BA in English Lit and I did much better on essay and fill in the blank tests-awful on multiple choice tests.
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Old 11-30-16, 12:10 PM
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Re: "unconditional parenting" by alfie kohn

Quote:
Originally Posted by Caco3girl View Post
I've spoken to several parents in my area that have children with ADHD or other issues that impede their learning in some way. I have seen time and time again that they call a 504 or an IEP meeting to eliminate a standard, rather than trying to work WITHIN the standard.

A good example is that in 9th grade literature 20% of your final grade is based on a standardized test. One mother, who has 4 Special Education children, called an IEP meeting where she explained that it was unreasonable for her child's grade to depend on a standardized test and she wanted that standard eliminated. The panel tried to work with her to determine accommodations that would help her kid like having the passages read to him, extended time...etc. However, she was firm that her child was unable to perform on a test like that and it should be eliminated for him.
We've always let the school staff take the lead on issues like that, they have
ideas on accomodations we know nothing about. But we've been taking our
mental health case manager with us to IEP meetings from the start.

The only emergency IEP we've ever demanded was when a substitute told my
autistic granddaughter that if she wasn't potty trained she wouldn't be able to
move on to the 2nd grade. We made sure that no one else had that kind of
idea and no one else was saying things like that to my granddaughter.

We fought for years over their accusation that she was being manipulative in
wetting her pants so that she could get out of doing math class. A kid who has
trouble verbalizing her feelings may sometimes look like they're being mani-
pulative in order to get what they need, but she didn't have any control over
her bladder until she was a pre-teen. If she couldn't control it not to pee, she
couldn't control it to pee when she wanted it to for Pete's sake.
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  #41  
Old 11-30-16, 01:58 PM
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Re: "unconditional parenting" by alfie kohn

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Originally Posted by Caco3girl View Post
Sure, let me start by saying it wasn't meant as a derogatory statement. It's been my experience when talking and working with most autistic children that drawing them into a conversation or showing them how to do something...well...they just aren't really WITH me. They visit my world for brief times but often it's like they are seeing things and perceiving things that I am not. i.e. in another world.
Thank you for explaining.

I'm still not understanding parts though - what do you mean by "aren't really WITH you"?

I think I sort of get the second part. Yes, we do experience the world differently, at least I think so. I think our sensory experience is much more amplified. I have zero ability to filter out noises, for example. Every noise I hear - the electricity running, cars passing by on the streets, people talking - it is all at the same volume. All heard at once. The sun is so bright to me, it causes me pain. Even on cloudy days it is sometimes too bright. Colors near me and in my area can be overwhelming. Etc...etc....

I don't think we see things others don't, unless there is psychosis along with autism. Like if you're speaking of hallucinating. Or maybe you meant "see" in a metaphorical way?

We are in the same world, we just experience it a bit differently.
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Old 11-30-16, 03:38 PM
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Re: "unconditional parenting" by alfie kohn

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Thank you for explaining.

I'm still not understanding parts though - what do you mean by "aren't really WITH you"?

I think I sort of get the second part. Yes, we do experience the world differently, at least I think so. I think our sensory experience is much more amplified. I have zero ability to filter out noises, for example. Every noise I hear - the electricity running, cars passing by on the streets, people talking - it is all at the same volume. All heard at once. The sun is so bright to me, it causes me pain. Even on cloudy days it is sometimes too bright. Colors near me and in my area can be overwhelming. Etc...etc....

I don't think we see things others don't, unless there is psychosis along with autism. Like if you're speaking of hallucinating. Or maybe you meant "see" in a metaphorical way?

We are in the same world, we just experience it a bit differently.
I'm not talking about hallucinations....oh gee how to explain. I once had a very difficult lesson with an autistic boy. The kid was staring at me, then trying not to look at me, then back to staring...he wasn't hearing me at all, zero acknowledgment that I was even talking. After about 5 minutes of this his helper was able to explain that the color red is very LOUD to him, and because my shirt was red he could NOT move past that and listen to anything I said. In that case I adapted to him, I never wore a red shirt again on a day I knew I would have a lesson with him, but he wasn't WITH me in this world. I don't know what the color red triggered in his head but he was nearly uncommunicative, whereas in the past we had had some issues but it had never been like that.
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Old 12-01-16, 06:03 PM
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Re: "unconditional parenting" by alfie kohn

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I'm not talking about hallucinations....oh gee how to explain. I once had a very difficult lesson with an autistic boy. The kid was staring at me, then trying not to look at me, then back to staring...he wasn't hearing me at all, zero acknowledgment that I was even talking. After about 5 minutes of this his helper was able to explain that the color red is very LOUD to him, and because my shirt was red he could NOT move past that and listen to anything I said. In that case I adapted to him, I never wore a red shirt again on a day I knew I would have a lesson with him, but he wasn't WITH me in this world. I don't know what the color red triggered in his head but he was nearly uncommunicative, whereas in the past we had had some issues but it had never been like that.
I see. Thanks for explaining.

It sounds like his sensory issues might have been much, or maybe he has synesthesia too. Glad you figured out to not wear the red shirt again.

I'm still confused why you say "he wasn't WITH me in this world"?

I don't think it is fair or necessarily right to say that he wasn't WITH you in this world simply because he is autistic and was not communicating?

We are here, we're always here, we haven't left the world. People just sometimes have trouble understanding us, and we sometimes have trouble understanding other people. Sometimes we might not communicate effectively or may seem like we aren't communicating at all.

But we are here, with you.
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Re: "unconditional parenting" by alfie kohn

I should mention, when I was a kid - I had lots of wires attached to my head and my brain activity looked at because my parents believed I was deliberately not listening to them. That I was disobeying them on purpose when they would directly tell me things and I didn't do it, or other times when they would talk to me and I wouldn't respond.

It turns out my ears worked fine, but the test results came back and the doctor explained that I do not "hear" people speaking sometimes, explained that it is like having gauze wrapped tightly around my head, and that it's a brain thing and not my fault. That I didn't hear my parents talking to me sometimes even if they were speaking to me and it seemed like I must've heard.

Btw I didn't even know I was getting tested or had an issue with hearing people.

Anyway I believe it is all part of just the way I am because of being autistic, but just because I don't process or "hear" people telling me things sometimes or may seem blank or non communicative doesn't mean I'm not here in this world.
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Old 12-02-16, 01:58 PM
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Re: "unconditional parenting" by alfie kohn

Quote:
Originally Posted by BellaVita View Post
I should mention, when I was a kid - I had lots of wires attached to my head and my brain activity looked at because my parents believed I was deliberately not listening to them. That I was disobeying them on purpose when they would directly tell me things and I didn't do it, or other times when they would talk to me and I wouldn't respond.

It turns out my ears worked fine, but the test results came back and the doctor explained that I do not "hear" people speaking sometimes, explained that it is like having gauze wrapped tightly around my head, and that it's a brain thing and not my fault. That I didn't hear my parents talking to me sometimes even if they were speaking to me and it seemed like I must've heard.

Btw I didn't even know I was getting tested or had an issue with hearing people.

Anyway I believe it is all part of just the way I am because of being autistic, but just because I don't process or "hear" people telling me things sometimes or may seem blank or non communicative doesn't mean I'm not here in this world.
This right there was why I described it as not being in this world. If a person is standing in front of you and you are talking to them and they are looking at you and they don't acknowledge anything you have said, or even attempt to read your lips...they stand there like a doll, what would you call it? I was once with an autistic child in one of these non-communicative states when a bookcase shelf collapsed. No one was hurt, just a bunch of books fell to the floor and made a loud noise,the child didn't even blink. It was experiences like this that lead me to use the term not in this world...do you have another way to describe it?

My ADHD son may not hear me at first but once I get him to come back by saying his name or touching his shoulder he's back and we can talk. My experience with Autistic children are that they are just sometimes gone and they will not come back until they are ready to.
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