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  #16  
Old 11-15-17, 08:30 PM
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Re: Would you encourage or allow your kids to play Football? (American football)

I was always glad I didn't have to face this delimma (or the circumcision one)
as I had a daughter and then two granddaughters. I know my hubby and my
son-in-law would have encouraged any sons to play football.
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  #17  
Old 11-15-17, 09:34 PM
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Re: Would you encourage or allow your kids to play Football? (American football)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fortune View Post
Okay, this is literally false. You are spreading misinformation. The concussions aren't due to underlying undiscovered conditions, and no one with any credibility has made any such claim in the history of discussing football concussions. CTE is an underlying condition caused by repeated concussions. It is not caused by anything else.
What's false?

You could avoid sport your entire life and still suffer a concussion at some point. I'm not suggesting that concussions can't occur as a result of sports, however, they can occur at any point in a persons life whether they participate in sports or not.

The argument of not playing football because of this is just as ridiculous as suggesting that we should avoid the sun at all times as there is a possibility that it may cause skin cancer, or we should avoid going on holiday anywhere, as there's a possibility. that the plane might crash, or the ship might sink. In fact, we should just avoid doing anything at all, as there's a chance that something might harm our health in some way! (Even doing nothing will harm us! Oh no! Now what?)

We can't go through life being avoidant of things, just because there's a chance it may harm us. Everything carries risk. Absolutely everything and whether you decide to do something or not, your health is always at risk regardless of the choices you make. You may choke on an apple and die.

People seriously need to do themselves a favour. Turn the TV off, stop listening to the news and start doing the things you want to be doing instead. Yes, there's a chance you could get hurt, there's always a chance you could get hurt on the very day you decide to avoid the very thing that you thought was going to harm you by doing something else that ultimately causes you harm.

Harm and injury is a fact of life, get over it and stop being afraid of everything.
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  #18  
Old 11-15-17, 09:52 PM
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Re: Would you encourage or allow your kids to play Football? (American football)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fraser_0762 View Post
What's false?

You could avoid sport your entire life and still suffer a concussion at some point. I'm not suggesting that concussions can't occur as a result of sports, however, they can occur at any point in a persons life whether they participate in sports or not.

The argument of not playing football because of this is just as ridiculous as suggesting that we should avoid the sun at all times as there is a possibility that it may cause skin cancer, or we should avoid going on holiday anywhere, as there's a possibility. that the plane might crash, or the ship might sink. In fact, we should just avoid doing anything at all, as there's a chance that something might harm our health in some way! (Even doing nothing will harm us! Oh no! Now what?)

We can't go through life being avoidant of things, just because there's a chance it may harm us. Everything carries risk. Absolutely everything and whether you decide to do something or not, your health is always at risk regardless of the choices you make. You may choke on an apple and die.

People seriously need to do themselves a favour. Turn the TV off, stop listening to the news and start doing the things you want to be doing instead. Yes, there's a chance you could get hurt, there's always a chance you could get hurt on the very day you decide to avoid the very thing that you thought was going to harm you by doing something else that ultimately causes you harm.

Harm and injury is a fact of life, get over it and stop being afraid of everything.
What Fortune was referring to as "false" was your claim that CTE is based on
an underlying condition. Clearly it is a result of repetitive brain trauma, seen
most often in combat vets and atheletes. You didn't address that at all.

We have learned to wear sunscreen when we spend quite a bit of time in the
sun to mitigate the cause of skin cancer. We have learned that smoking does
increase the chance of other cancers and breathing disorders. We have also
learned that wearing a seat belt greatly improves our chance of surviving a
car crash. And life boats and life vests are mandated on all seagoing vessels.

Yeah, people can ignore this knowledge and take all the risks they want to,
but I'd rather take reasonable precautions.

Oh, CTE also occurs in victims of repetitive domestic violence, but of course
we don't want to tell the victim to get out of that relationship for their own
safety. Right?
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Old 11-15-17, 10:03 PM
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Re: Would you encourage or allow your kids to play Football? (American football)

I think the NFL is starting to take it serious now. There's more here than harm and injury are a fact of life. It's been a serious issue for a long time and is finally coming to light.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NFL.Com
NFL, ex-players agree to $765M settlement in concussions suit
Associated Press

PHILADELPHIA -- The NFL has reached a tentative $765 million settlement over concussion-related brain injuries among its 18,000 retired players, agreeing to compensate victims, pay for medical exams and underwrite research.

A federal judge announced the agreement Thursday after months of court-ordered mediation. It came just days before the start of the 2013 season.

More than 4,500 former athletes -- some suffering from dementia, depression or Alzheimer's that they blamed on blows to the head -- had sued the league, accusing it of concealing the dangers of concussions and rushing injured players back onto the field while glorifying and profiting from the kind of bone-jarring hits that make for spectacular highlight-reel footage.

The NFL long has denied any wrongdoing and insisted that safety always has been a top priority. But the NFL said Thursday that Commissioner Roger Goodell told pro football's lawyers to "do the right thing for the game and the men who played it."

The plaintiffs included Hall of Famer Tony Dorsett, Super Bowl-winning quarterback Jim McMahon and the family of Pro Bowl linebacker Junior Seau, who committed suicide last year.

Under the settlement, individual awards would be capped at $5 million for men with Alzheimer's disease; $4 million for those diagnosed after their deaths with a brain condition called chronic traumatic encephalopathy; and $3 million for players with dementia, said lead plaintiffs' lawyer Christopher Seeger.

Any of the approximately 18,000 former NFL players would be eligible.

Senior U.S. District Judge Anita Brody in Philadelphia announced the proposed agreement and will consider approving it at a later date.

The settlement most likely means the NFL won't have to disclose internal files about what it knew, and when, about concussion-linked brain problems. Lawyers had been eager to learn, for instance, about the workings of the league's Mild Traumatic Brain Injury Committee, which was led for more than a decade by a rheumatologist.

In recent years, a string of former NFL players and other concussed athletes have been diagnosed after their deaths with chronic traumatic encephalopathy, or CTE. Those ex-players included Seau and lead plaintiff Ray Easterling, who filed the first lawsuit in Philadelphia in August 2011 but later committed suicide.

About one-third of the league's 12,000 former players eventually joined the litigation. They include a few hundred "gap" players, who played during years when there was no labor contract in place, and were therefore considered likely to win the right to sue.
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  #20  
Old 11-15-17, 10:12 PM
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Re: Would you encourage or allow your kids to play Football? (American football)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lunacie View Post
What Fortune was referring to as "false" was your claim that CTE is based on
an underlying condition. Clearly it is a result of repetitive brain trauma, seen
most often in combat vets and atheletes. You didn't address that at all.
Where did I actually say that "CTE" was a result of an underlining condition? You just made that up. CTE is only one problem experienced by athletes, OTHER problems experienced by athletes ARE often caused by undiscovered underlining conditions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lunacie View Post
We have learned to wear sunscreen when we spend quite a bit of time in the
sun to mitigate the cause of skin cancer. We have learned that smoking does
increase the chance of other cancers and breathing disorders. We have also
learned that wearing a seat belt greatly improves our chance of surviving a
car crash. And life boats and life vests are mandated on all seagoing vessels.
Then one day the people on the TV can tell us that sunscreen doesn't actually prevent skin cancer, that smoking is "back in fashion" again and that seat belts and life boats aren't as efficient at saving people as originally thought. Then we can start panicking about all of those things again, because.... well..... TV.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lunacie View Post
Yeah, people can ignore this knowledge and take all the risks they want to,
but I'd rather take reasonable precautions.
I'm not suggesting people ignore taking precautions. I am however suggesting that if the media told us the air was highly toxic, we'd be stupid enough to hold our breaths long enough that it would ultimately suffocate us. Because people don't think for themselves anymore. They do it for us.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lunacie View Post
Oh, CTE also occurs in victims of repetitive domestic violence, but of course
we don't want to tell the victim to get out of that relationship for their own
safety. Right?
Or perhaps they should just leave, because eh, you know... they're just not all that happy?
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Old 11-15-17, 10:14 PM
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Re: Would you encourage or allow your kids to play Football? (American football)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Greyhound1 View Post
I think the NFL is starting to take it serious now. There's more here than harm and injury are a fact of life. It's been a serious issue for a long time and is finally coming to light.
It was never a secret. Are we only just discovering now that repetitive blows to the head can cause brain damage? Are we honestly going to pretend that this is breaking revelations?

Don't you think that it's maybe just a little bit possible that people always sort of knew, but carried on anyway, because it's what they chose to do and something they'll continue to choose to do?
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Old 11-15-17, 10:49 PM
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Re: Would you encourage or allow your kids to play Football? (American football)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fraser_0762 View Post
Where did I actually say that "CTE" was a result of an underlining condition? You just made that up. CTE is only one problem experienced by athletes, OTHER problems experienced by athletes ARE often caused by undiscovered underlining conditions.
Nope, I didn't make anything up. That was what Fortune said in her post.

What you said was:

Quote:
To be honest, I think there are far more dangerous sports than American Football. Most of the bad things that occur to American Football players are usually a result of an underlining condition which can be triggered by any strenuous physical sport.
Perhaps you could explain what "Most of the bad things that occur to
American football players" outnumber CTEs?

And what are the underlying conditions that may be triggered by playing
sports?


Quote:
I'm not suggesting people ignore taking precautions. I am however suggesting that if the media told us the air was highly toxic, we'd be stupid enough to hold our breaths long enough that it would ultimately suffocate us. Because people don't think for themselves anymore. They do it for us.
That seems to me to be a vast over-generalization. Yeah, some people don't
care enough to check out the health "facts" reported by the media, but I
believe a lot of us are actually smart enough to think for ourselves.

Quote:
Or perhaps they should just leave, because eh, you know... they're just not all that happy?
Seriously? Domestic violence victims should leave because they're not "happy"?
Nevermind the fact that they are getting beaten senseless and all too often
killed? Seriously?
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Old 11-15-17, 10:51 PM
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Re: Would you encourage or allow your kids to play Football? (American football)

Just to add

We do a lot of things in life that aren't good for our overall mental well being. Junk food, stressful life styles, rotting away in front of the TV.... etc. But we still continue to do these things anyway, despite the damages that it knowingly causes us.

Why? Because we choose to. Just as football players choose to play football. We have no right telling them they can't do something they enjoy, while we continue to do self destructive things that we enjoy ourselves.
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  #24  
Old 11-15-17, 11:04 PM
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Re: Would you encourage or allow your kids to play Football? (American football)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lunacie View Post
Nope, I didn't make anything up. That was what Fortune said in her post.
Ah right.... so what somebody else said in their post somehow directly translates into what I said in my own?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lunacie View Post
What you said was:

Perhaps you could explain what "Most of the bad things that occur to
American football players" outnumber CTEs?

And what are the underlying conditions that may be triggered by playing
sports?
Cardiac arrest? Sudden death syndrome? When a player suddenly collapses on the pitch and isn't successfully brought back? It can happen to anyone with an undiscovered underlining condition who participates in any physically strenuous exercise. Ive even had the misfortune of witnessing it occur first hand.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Lunacie View Post
That seems to me to be a vast over-generalization. Yeah, some people don't
care enough to check out the health "facts" reported by the media, but I
believe a lot of us are actually smart enough to think for ourselves.
No, they DO check out the health "facts" reported by the media. That's the problem. It's the same media that tells you one week that red meat is good for you and the next week it will kill you. They don't know what they're talking about, they're just filling peoples heads with utter nonsense to distract them from the real issues in the world. That's all it is, one big sideshow.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lunacie View Post
Seriously? Domestic violence victims should leave because they're not "happy"?
Nevermind the fact that they are getting beaten senseless and all too often
killed? Seriously?
I'm sorry, are you somehow trying to suggest that domestic violence victims, somehow ties into playing football, because football players get hurt also? I'm not quite sure where you're trying to go with this one.
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Old 11-15-17, 11:23 PM
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Re: Would you encourage or allow your kids to play Football? (American football)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fraser_0762 View Post
Just to add

We do a lot of things in life that aren't good for our overall mental well being. Junk food, stressful life styles, rotting away in front of the TV.... etc. But we still continue to do these things anyway, despite the damages that it knowingly causes us.

Why? Because we choose to. Just as football players choose to play football. We have no right telling them they can't do something they enjoy, while we continue to do self destructive things that we enjoy ourselves.
Adults can choose to play football or any other thing that we know is quite
dangerous. This thread was asking whether we would encourage our KIDS
to play such a dangerous sport.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Fraser_0762 View Post
Ah right.... so what somebody else said in their post somehow directly translates into what I said in my own?
Hm. I thought I had made it clear that your response to Fortune didn't
actually address her point. All you really needed to say was "But that's not
what I actually said." Like you said in your response to me.


Quote:
Cardiac arrest? Sudden death syndrome? When a player suddenly collapses on the pitch and isn't successfully brought back? It can happen to anyone with an undiscovered underlining condition who participates in any physically strenuous exercise. Ive even had the misfortune of witnessing it occur first hand.
One doesn't even have to be engaging in physically strenuous exercise.
I know one guy who died first thing in the morning as he was taking his
clothes out of the closet. My husband died walking into work one day. My
son-in-law died in his sleep. All cardiac arrests. Not doing anything strenuous.



But does it really happen more often on football fields than concussion and
resultant CTE?


Quote:
I'm sorry, are you somehow trying to suggest that domestic violence victims, somehow ties into playing football, because football players get hurt also? I'm not quite sure where you're trying to go with this one.
You wrote:
Quote:
We can't go through life being avoidant of things, just because there's a chance it may harm us.
I was pointing out that it would be stupid to avoid some really dangerous
things.
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Old 11-15-17, 11:52 PM
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Re: Would you encourage or allow your kids to play Football? (American football)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fraser_0762 View Post
Just to add

We do a lot of things in life that aren't good for our overall mental well being. Junk food, stressful life styles, rotting away in front of the TV.... etc. But we still continue to do these things anyway, despite the damages that it knowingly causes us.

Why? Because we choose to. Just as football players choose to play football. We have no right telling them they can't do something they enjoy, while we continue to do self destructive things that we enjoy ourselves.
The thread is about allowing kids. I don't think the general public had any clue to the severity and commonness of brain issues from football until fairly recently.

Sure most knew repeated blows to the head could cause brain damage. Most didn't know the severity from football and have been duped that helmets protect them from this.

I am not proposing to not let football players play football. It's just the general public nor players were aware of the severity until several years ago, perhaps the NFL knew in advance.
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Old 11-16-17, 12:06 AM
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Re: Would you encourage or allow your kids to play Football? (American football)

Fraser, you dismissed problems caused by playing football as actually being caused by underlying conditions. CTE is the major thing that has come up about football and is a major reason people may choose not to allow their children to play football, and it is not caused by an underlying condition.

You could have simply clarified that you didn't intend to include CTE in your generalization, and that would have been fine.
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Old 11-16-17, 02:23 AM
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Re: Would you encourage or allow your kids to play Football? (American football)

And yes, most things are risky in life, and regardless of the care we take, we die anyway.

That said, we do risk assessments and consider cost/benefit ratios and relationships.

Some things we do, and some things not.

Given the risk of concussion, and the increased risk of TBI in children, and the combination of short-term and long-term consequences resultant from being concussed, especially more than once, I think playing that sport qualifies as too risky to play, based on my values and knowledge.

Others will arrive at differing conclusions, and may do with their brain as they see fit.


Cheers,
Ian
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Old 11-16-17, 02:54 AM
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Re: Would you encourage or allow your kids to play Football? (American football)

Fraser- I think you are using this discussion to push an agenda of the media being the master manipulators and missing the point. It has been proven that football, which contains massive blows to the head, is linked 100% to TBI and CTE. This is not a spin the media puts on things. If anything for once the media didnt spin anything probably due to the fact that major television networks reaped huge profits from football with advertizing, product placement and NFL gear. So the media is not the one spinning this. There have been cases in the last few years of players becoming paranoid, hearing voices, having violent anger episodes, self harm, suicide, domestic violence, even murder that is linked specifically to TBI. This is not a theory.
So my question about letting a child play football and whether that is safe or not stands. Especially with a developing brain, I cant see knowing what we know now would make a parent comfortable allowing it.
The controversy over football helmets lulling people into a feeling of safety is also an issue. People thought the gear was enough to protect the head and it's not.
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Old 11-16-17, 03:42 PM
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Re: Would you encourage or allow your kids to play Football? (American football)

Quote:
Originally Posted by sarahsweets View Post
This is not a spin the media puts on things. If anything for once the media didnt spin anything probably due to the fact that major television networks reaped huge profits from football with advertizing, product placement and NFL gear. So the media is not the one spinning this.
Allan Schwarz was responsible for the first very consistent source of media covering the link between CTE and repeated concussions/head trauma, among NFL players.

Allan Schwarz is also the author of the book "ADHD Nation".

I love football.

I played football.

I had at least a few concussions.

It was my son's choice not to play organized football.

I was really happy he did not want to play organized football, because I do not want him to possibly get concussions.

Unorganized free play with a football is our favorite thing to do together.

We laugh a lot when we freeplay with a football.

My son can kick and throw the ball really good.

I've noticed a difference for the better, in football, hockey, and many other different organized sports in regards to more proper concussion protocol, since Allan Schwarz repeatedly reported on the previous lack of concussion protocol in the NFL.




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Last edited by mildadhd; 11-16-17 at 04:12 PM..
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