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  #61  
Old 02-05-18, 08:37 PM
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Re: Questions about so called SCT?

Quote:
Originally Posted by namazu View Post
Lunacie, doing it with names is a great idea. It makes it much clearer that these are individual people we're talking about, and that they should only be counted once, because they're each just one person!

(That said, the labels in your example are a little confusing. If Adam and Amy have both ADHD and SCT, then they can't be in an "ADHD only" group. Ditto Scott and Samantha, who have both, so can't be in an "SCT only" group. But I think with some tweaks, your example could be very helpful.)

Let's forget about the 5% and 2.5% numbers altogether...

Class has 100 kids.

6 (6%) have ADHD:
Alex, Brandon, Cherise, Donna, Eric, and Freddy

6 (6%) have SCT:
Donna, Eric, Freddy, Gisela, Harry, and Istvan

Of the kids with ADHD...
3 (3%) -- Alex, Brandon, and Cherise --
have ADHD only,
while
3 (3%) -- Donna, Eric, and Freddy --
have both ADHD and SCT.

Of the kids with SCT...
3 (3%) -- Gisela, Harry, and Istvan --
have SCT only,
while
3 (3%) -- Donna, Eric, and Freddy --
have both SCT and ADHD.

How many kids in the class have ADHD and/or SCT?
Let's count them:
1. Alex, 2. Brandon, 3. Cherise <-- ADHD only (3%)
4. Donna, 5. Eric, 6. Freddy <---ADHD + SCT (3%)
7. Gisela, 8. Harry, and 9. Istvan <---SCT only (3%)
---------------------------------------------------
9 kids total / 100 kids in the class = 9%

If we added the original ADHD group (Alex, Brandon, Cherise, Donna, Eric, and Freddy = 6%) to the original SCT group (Donna, Eric, Freddy, Gisela, Harry, and Istvan = 6%)
6% + 6%
or if we added the ADHD-only (Alex, Brandon, and Cherise = 3%) + ADHD+SCT (Donna, Eric, and Freddy = 3%) + SCT+ADHD (Donna, Eric, and Freddy = 3%) + SCT-only (Gisela, Harry, and Istvan = 3%)
3% + 3% + 3% + 3%
we'd get 12% -- which would be incorrect, because there are only 9 kids total (9% of the class) with these diagnoses. We get it wrong this way because we're double-counting Donna, Eric, and Freddy.

--------------------------

Long story short, and more on point -- according to the stats Barkley presented, the numbers of people who have ADHD alone, ADHD + SCT, and SCT alone are roughly equal.
Thanks Namazu, I didn't think it looked quite right, but the fever is keeping me
from thinking it all the way through.
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  #62  
Old 02-05-18, 08:38 PM
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Re: Questions about so called SCT?

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Originally Posted by Lunacie View Post
Thanks Namazu, I didn't think it looked quite right, but the fever is keeping me
from thinking it all the way through.
Ugh, fever? -- feel better soon!
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  #63  
Old 02-06-18, 12:37 AM
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Re: Questions about so called SCT?

Quote:
Quote:
Approximately, 6% of the adult population have symptoms of ADHD.

Alana, Allan, Art, *Alanis*, *Alexis*, *Amos*


Approximately, 6% of the adult population have symptoms of SCT.

Scott, Sharon, Sean, *Sara*, *Samantha*, *Sophia*

*ADHD symptoms and SCT symptoms*

-Alana, Allan, Art (3/100) have ADHD symptoms (without SCT symptoms).


-*Alanis*, *Alexis*, *Amos*, *Sara*, *Samantha*, *Sophia* (6/100) have ADHD symptoms and SCT symptoms.


-Scott, Sharon, Sean (3/100) have SCT symptoms (without ADHD symptoms).


6% + 6% = 12%

(3% + 3%) + (3% +3%) = 12%

(3% + (3% + 3%) + 3%) = 12%

(3% + (6%) + 3%) = 12%


The adult population are twice as likely to have both ADHD symptoms and SCT symptoms, than ADHD symptoms (without SCT symptoms), or, SCT symptoms (without ADHD symptoms).



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Last edited by mildadhd; 02-06-18 at 01:00 AM..
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  #64  
Old 02-06-18, 12:56 AM
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Re: Questions about so called SCT?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mildadhd View Post
Approximately, 6% of the adult population have symptoms ADHD

Alana, Allan, Art, *Alanis*, *Alexis*, *Amos*

Approximately, 6% of the adult population have symptoms SCT

Scott, Sharon, Sean *Sara*, *Samantha*, *Sophia*

*ADHD symptoms and SCT symptoms*

-Alana, Allan, Art (3/100) have ADHD symptoms (without SCT symptoms).

-*Alanis*, *Alexis*, *Amos*, *Sara*, *Samantha*, *Sophia*, (6/100) have ADHD symptoms and SCT symptoms

-Scott, Sharon, Sean (3/100) have SCT symptoms (without ADHD symptoms).
If Alana, Alan, Art, Alanis, Alexis, Amos, Sara, Samantha, and Sophia all have ADHD symptoms, then that's 9/100 = 9%, not 6%.

Similarly, if Alanis, Alexis, Amos, Sara, Samantha, Sophia, Scott, Sharon, and Sean all have SCT symptoms, that's 9/100 = 9%, not 6%.

If they have both SCT symptoms and ADHD symptoms,
then they must have ADHD symptoms, and have to be included in the ADHD list
AND
they must have SCT symptoms, and have to be included in the SCT list.

But when you're counting individuals who fit ANY of the categories, each person only counts once.

---------------------------------

Let's say that you're the ONLY person in the room, and you have ADHD-PI and anxiety.

If I say...
"Raise your hand if you have ADD-PI!"
...you raise your hand.
1/1=100% of the people in the room raised their hand!

If I then say...
"Raise your hand if you have anxiety!"
...you raise your hand again.
1/1 = 100% of the people in the room raised their hand!

If I then say...
"Raise your hand if you have anxiety AND/OR ADHD-PI!"
...how many people raise their hand?*



Even though you raised your hand once to say that you have ADHD-PI (so you count towards the ADHD-PI total), and you raised your hand another time to say you have anxiety (so you count towards the anxiety total), you are only one person. There's only 1 of you, even if you have 2 conditions.

That's where your arithmetic is off. I wish I could talk to you in person, with a white board. It's so much easier when I can gesticulate!

The adult population is equally likely to have
both ADHD symptoms and SCT symptoms,
ADHD symptoms alone, or
SCT symptoms alone.


* No fair raising 2 hands and counting them separately!

---------------------------------------

Any other questions about so-called SCT?

Last edited by namazu; 02-06-18 at 01:16 AM..
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  #65  
Old 02-06-18, 01:30 AM
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Re: Questions about so called SCT?

6% have both ADHD symptoms and SCT symptoms, not 9%.

3% have ADHD symptoms (without SCT symptoms)

3% have SCT symptoms (without ADHD symptoms)




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Last edited by mildadhd; 02-06-18 at 01:42 AM.. Reason: .edit
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  #66  
Old 02-06-18, 01:34 AM
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Re: Questions about so called SCT?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mildadhd View Post
6% have both ADHD symptoms and SCT symptoms, not 9%.

3% have ADHD symptoms (without SCT symptoms)

3% have SCT symptoms (without ADHD symptoms)
In your scenario, yes.

But 9% in your scenario have ADHD.
(That's the 6% who have both ADHD and SCT + the 3% with ADHD alone.)

And 9% have SCT.
(That's the 6% who have both ADHD and SCT + the 3% with SCT alone.)

So those numbers don't work out right.

And then,

If 6 people had both ADHD and SCT, and 3 had ADHD alone, then 6/9 = 2/3 of the people with ADHD would have both. (We are looking for a scenario where 1/2 of the people with ADHD have both.)

If 6 people had both ADHD and SCT, and 3 had SCT alone, then 6/9 = 2/3 of the people with SCT would have both. (We are looking for a scenario where 1/2 of the people with SCT have both.)

So those numbers don't work out right, either.


In order for there to be 5% of the population with ADHD, and 5% of the population with SCT, and for half of each group to have both ADHD and SCT, there need to be approximately equal numbers of people in the ADHD only, SCT only, and ADHD+SCT groups.


If you still don't believe it, we'll have to agree to disagree and move on.
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  #67  
Old 02-06-18, 01:58 AM
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Re: Questions about so called SCT?

Quote:
Originally Posted by namazu View Post
If you still don't believe it, we'll have to agree to disagree and move on.
Thankfully, math isn't subject to opinion, or something that can be disbelieved, save cases of deliberate and willful ignorance.

And I must say, thank you so much for what you have contributed to both this thread, as well as understanding.

I highly value when someone takes the time to share of themselves by teaching.

And you took the time, so you're...golden.


Thank You,
Ian
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  #68  
Old 02-06-18, 02:03 AM
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Re: Questions about so called SCT?

No, it's not subject to opinion. That doesn't mean it's intuitive, either. Smart people can find stuff like this difficult to grok, especially when it's presented in this format.

I got myself tangled up at some point earlier, and had to work through it and check my calculations several times to be sure all the numbers worked out right and all the conditions were satisfied.

Thanks for the compliment.

I'm looking forward to the next question -- I wonder if it will be as contentious as the last!

Last edited by namazu; 02-06-18 at 03:21 AM.. Reason: clarity
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  #69  
Old 02-06-18, 02:07 AM
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Re: Questions about so called SCT?

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Originally Posted by namazu View Post
No, it's not subject to opinion. That doesn't mean it's intuitive, either, and even smart people can find stuff like this difficult to grok.
That reminds me of my first college math class. It was the first time I knew something was wrong, but I didn't know what. Diagnosis would come 20+ years later.

Quote:
Originally Posted by namazu View Post
Thanks for the compliment.
You are most welcome.


Cheers,
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  #70  
Old 02-06-18, 02:13 AM
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Re: Questions about so called SCT?

Quote:
Quote:
Approximately, 6% of the adult population have symptoms of ADHD.

Alana, Allan, Art, *Alanis*, *Alexis*, *Amos*
Quote:
Approximately, 6% of the adult population have symptoms of SCT.

Scott, Sharon, Sean, *Sara*, *Samantha*, *Sophia*

*ADHD symptoms and SCT symptoms*

Namazu,

I think your making a mistake.


Quote:
6 adults have ADHD symptoms and 3 of those same 6 also have SCT symptoms

= 3 adults have ADHD symptoms (without SCT symptoms) and 3 adults have ADHD symptoms and SCT symptoms

Quote:
6 adults have SCT symptoms and 3 of those same 6 also have ADHD symptoms

= 3 adults have SCT symptoms (without ADHD symptoms ) and 3 adults have ADHD symptoms and SCT symptoms

3% + 3% + 3% + 3% = 12%

3% + 6% + 3% = 12%




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Last edited by mildadhd; 02-06-18 at 02:41 AM..
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  #71  
Old 02-06-18, 03:34 AM
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Re: Questions about so called SCT?

No, in this case, I didn't make a mistake. (See post #66 above.)

We'll have to agree to disagree for now.

I need to go to bed!

Last edited by namazu; 02-06-18 at 04:14 AM.. Reason: agreed to disagree
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  #72  
Old 02-06-18, 11:22 AM
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Re: Questions about so called SCT?

Group #1

6/100 have ADHD symptoms and 3 of this same group also have overlapping SCT symptoms.

Quote:
Alana, Allan, Art, *Alanis*, *Alexis*, *Amos*
Note there are not 9 people with ADHD symptoms in this group of 100 people.



*********



Group #2

6/100 have SCT symptoms and 3 of this same group also of have overlapping ADHD symptoms.

Quote:
Scott, Sharon, Sean, *Sara*, *Samantha*, *Sophia*
Note there are not 9 people with SCT symptoms in this group of 100 people.





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Old 02-06-18, 12:04 PM
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Re: Questions about so called SCT?

If we look at the Venn Diagram.

If X equals the number of adults in both groups with ADHD symptoms and SCT symptoms.

And 3 of the adults in group #1, have ADHD symptoms (without SCT symptoms)

And 3 of the adults in group #2, have SCT symptoms (without ADHD symptoms)

And there are 12 adults in both groups.


3 + X + 3 = 12

X = 12 - 6

X = 6


6 adults have both ADHD symptoms and SCT symptoms

3 adults have ADHD symptoms (without SCT symptoms)

3 adults have SCT symptoms (without ADHD symptoms)




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Last edited by mildadhd; 02-06-18 at 12:17 PM..
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Old 02-06-18, 01:53 PM
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Re: Questions about so called SCT?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mildadhd View Post
If we look at the Venn Diagram.

If X equals the number of adults in both groups with ADHD symptoms and SCT symptoms.

And 3 of the adults in group #1, have ADHD symptoms (without SCT symptoms)

And 3 of the adults in group #2, have SCT symptoms (without ADHD symptoms)

And there are 12 adults in both groups.


3 + X + 3 = 12

X = 12 - 6

X = 6


6 adults have both ADHD symptoms and SCT symptoms

3 adults have ADHD symptoms (without SCT symptoms)

3 adults have SCT symptoms (without ADHD symptoms)
If there are 12 adults in both groups, as you said, that means you left 12 of the 24 people total unaccounted for.

EDIT: OK, I didn’t understand your language at first...so 12 people.

You have no way to know how many people have ADHD and SCT in your example, because X could be zero, or any integer up to and including 6.

Let’s call no disorder at all Q.

Your equation is 3 + X + Q + 3 = 12

All we can know from your example is that X + Q = 6, and both X and Q are some number from 0 to 6.




Cheers,
Ian
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Old 02-06-18, 01:59 PM
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Re: Questions about so called SCT?

Quote:
Originally Posted by aeon View Post
If there are 12 adults in both groups, as you said, that means you left 12 of the 24 people total unaccounted for.


Cheers,
Ian

12 adults in both groups, total.




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