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  #76  
Old 02-06-18, 02:09 PM
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Re: Questions about so called SCT?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mildadhd View Post
According to Dr. Barkley, half the people who have ADHD have SCT, and, half the people who have SCT have ADHD.

If all people diagnosed with ADHD-Combined and ADHD-Predominantly Hyperactive/Impulsive have must have a certain number of hyperactive symptoms to meet the diagnostic criteria, and people who have SCT do not have any hyperactive symptoms.

Does that mean only people who have ADHD-Predominately Inattentive could possibly have so called SCT?

(I have more questions, but I will start with this question)


M
Three people have an apple. Three other people have an orange.
Another three people have both an apple and an orange.

If you ask them who has an apple, six of them will raise their hands ...
the three who only have an apple and the three who have both fruits.

If you ask them who has an orange, six of them will raise their hands ...
the three who only have an orange and the three who have both fruits.

But that doesn't mean there are twelve people. There are only nine people.
Because one-third of the people have both an apple and an orange.



The ADHD people who have SCT symptoms are the same people as the SCT people who have ADHD symptoms.


(bolding used for emphasis not from frustration)
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  #77  
Old 02-06-18, 02:13 PM
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Re: Questions about so called SCT?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mildadhd
Approximately, 6% of the adult population have symptoms of ADHD.

Alana, Allan, Art, *Alanis*, *Alexis*, *Amos*

Approximately, 6% of the adult population have symptoms of SCT.

Scott, Sharon, Sean, *Sara*, *Samantha*, *Sophia*

*ADHD symptoms and SCT symptoms*
Do *Sara*, *Samantha*, and *Sophia* have symptoms of ADHD?
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  #78  
Old 02-06-18, 02:21 PM
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Re: Questions about so called SCT?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lunacie View Post
Three people have an apple. Three other people have an orange.
Another three people have both an apple and an orange.

If you ask them who has an apple, six of them will raise their hands ...
the three who only have an apple and the three who have both fruits.

If you ask them who has an orange, six of them will raise their hands ...
the three who only have an orange and the three who have both fruits.

But that doesn't mean there are twelve people. There are only nine people.
Because one-third of the people have both an apple and an orange.



The ADHD people who have SCT symptoms are the same people as the SCT people who have ADHD symptoms.


(bolding used for emphasis not from frustration)

Your making the same mistake as Namazu.


Group #1 has 6 adults (3 of them have ADHD symptoms, 3 of them have overlapping ADHD symptoms and SCT symptoms)

Group #2 has 6 adults.(3 of them have SCT symptoms, 3 of them have overlapping ADHD symptoms and SCT symptoms)


M
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  #79  
Old 02-06-18, 02:37 PM
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Re: Questions about so called SCT?

Quote:
Originally Posted by namazu View Post
Do *Sara*, *Samantha*, and *Sophia* have symptoms of ADHD?

I think your confusing overlapping symptoms within each separate group, with the overlap in the Venn Diagram?








M
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  #80  
Old 02-06-18, 02:38 PM
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Re: Questions about so called SCT?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mildadhd View Post
I think your confusing overlapping symptoms within each separate group, with the overlap in the Venn Diagram?
No, I'm not. This is the point several of us have been trying to convey: There are NOT two completely separate groups. There are two groups (an ADHD group and an SCT group) that share some members in common: the people who have both ADHD symptoms and SCT symptoms.

I asked you a question:

Do *Sara*, *Samantha*, and *Sophia* have symptoms of ADHD?
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  #81  
Old 02-06-18, 03:48 PM
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Re: Questions about so called SCT?

Quote:
Originally Posted by namazu View Post
No, I'm not. This is the point several of us have been trying to convey: There are NOT two completely separate groups. There are two groups (an ADHD group and an SCT group) that share some members in common: the people who have both ADHD symptoms and SCT symptoms.

I asked you a question:

Do *Sara*, *Samantha*, and *Sophia* have symptoms of ADHD?

(Before you consider the Venn Diagram.)

Quote:
-Are there overlapping symptoms within the 6 adults in Group #1?


Yes, 6 adults have 9 sets of symptoms.

6 adults have 6 sets of ADHD symptoms and 3 sets of SCT symptoms.
Quote:
-Are there overlapping symptoms within the 6 adults in Group #2?


Yes, 6 adults have 9 sets of symptoms.

-6 adults have 6 sets of SCT symptoms, and 3 sets of ADHD symptoms.
(Now consider the Venn Diagram)

Quote:
How many adults have ADHD symptoms (without SCT symptoms)?

3
Quote:
How many adults in both groups have ADHD symptoms and SCT symptoms? (Overlap in Venn Diagram)

6
Quote:
How many adults have SCT symptoms (without ADHD symptoms)?

3
Quote:
How many adults are there in both groups total?


If y = how many adults are in both groups total


y = 3 + 6 + 3

y = 12 adults in both groups total
Quote:
Group #1 (6/100 adults)

6 sets of ADHD symptoms (Alana, Allan, Art, *Alanis*, *Alexis*, *Amos*) and 3 sets of SCT symptoms (*Alanis*, *Alexis*, *Amos*)
Quote:
Group #2 (6/100 adults)

6 sets of SCT symptoms (Scott, Sharon, Sean, *Sara*, *Samantha*, *Sophia*) and 3 sets of ADHD (*Sara*, *Samantha*, and *Sophia*)



M
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Last edited by mildadhd; 02-06-18 at 03:59 PM..
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  #82  
Old 02-06-18, 03:58 PM
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Re: Questions about so called SCT?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mildadhd View Post
Your making the same mistake as Namazu.


Group #1 has 6 adults (3 of them have ADHD symptoms, 3 of them have overlapping ADHD symptoms and SCT symptoms)

Group #2 has 6 adults.(3 of them have SCT symptoms, 3 of them have overlapping ADHD symptoms and SCT symptoms)


M
Nope, we aren't making the mistake.

There are three groups of three people (3 x 3 = 9)

Group one has apples (ADHD)

Group two has oranges (SCT)

Group three has both apples and oranges (ADHD & SCT)

You have been counting the third group twice.

The people in each group who have overlapping symptoms are the same people.
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  #83  
Old 02-06-18, 04:01 PM
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Re: Questions about so called SCT?

Forget the Venn diagram, and forget algebra. Let's keep this simple.

Do *Sara*, *Samantha*, and *Sophia* have symptoms of ADHD?
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  #84  
Old 02-06-18, 04:13 PM
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Re: Questions about so called SCT?

Quote:
Originally Posted by namazu View Post
Let's keep this simple.
I’m afraid that boat sailed some time ago.


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  #85  
Old 02-06-18, 04:44 PM
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Re: Questions about so called SCT?

Quote:
Originally Posted by namazu View Post

Do *Sara*, *Samantha*, and *Sophia* have symptoms of ADHD?
I already answered that question.

You need to look at the whole picture, and consider the overlapping sets of symptoms in each of the two groups, separately, before you consider solving the overlap in the Venn Diagram.

Quote:
Group #1 (6/100 adults)

6 sets of ADHD symptoms (Alana, Allan, Art, *Alanis*, *Alexis*, *Amos*) and 3 sets of SCT symptoms (*Alanis*, *Alexis*, *Amos*)
Quote:
Group #2 (6/100 adults)

6 sets of SCT symptoms (Scott, Sharon, Sean, *Sara*, *Samantha*, *Sophia*) and 3 sets of ADHD (*Sara*, *Samantha*, and *Sophia*)



M
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Last edited by mildadhd; 02-06-18 at 04:54 PM..
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  #86  
Old 02-06-18, 04:57 PM
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Re: Questions about so called SCT?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mildadhd View Post
I already answered that question.

You need to look at the whole picture, and consider the overlapping sets of symptoms in each of the two groups, separately, before you consider solving the overlap in the Venn Diagram.








M





I think it might help if you take a break from this for a few days and then look
at it with fresh eyes.
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  #87  
Old 02-06-18, 05:35 PM
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Re: Questions about so called SCT?

If Sara, Samantha, and Sophia have symptoms of ADHD, then they must be counted towards the % of the population with symptoms of ADHD.

You did not count them towards the % of the population with symptoms of ADHD, and it threw off your numbers.

The same with Alanis, Alexis, and Amos. They have symptoms of both ADHD and SCT, so they must be counted towards the % of the population with symptoms of SCT.

You did not count them towards the % of the population with symptoms of SCT, and it threw off your numbers.

If they have "overlapping sets of symptoms" -- that is, they have both ADHD symptoms AND SCT symptoms, then they need to be in both the ADHD group AND the SCT group.

-----------------------------
On Venn diagrams:

A circle on a Venn diagram represents a group. Anyone within the circle belongs to that group.

A second circle on a Venn diagram represents a second group. Anyone within that other circle belongs to that other group.

The people who fall inside both circles (inside the overlapping region) belong to both groups.

With a Venn diagram, there is nothing to "solve".

If there's one circle representing "people with ADHD," everyone who has ADHD will be in that circle.

If there's a second circle representing "people with SCT", everyone who has SCT will be in that circle.

People who have both ADHD and SCT will be in the section in the middle where the circles overlap, because they belong to both groups.

This is a simple explanation:

Each dot represents exactly one person. The total number of people = the total number of dots. Some of the dots are in multiple circles (groups).

Last edited by namazu; 02-06-18 at 05:48 PM..
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  #88  
Old 02-06-18, 07:30 PM
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Re: Questions about so called SCT?

Group#1...............Group #2

ADHD...................SCT
ADHD...................SCT
ADHD...................SCT
ADHD/SCT.............SCT/ADHD
ADHD/SCT.............SCT/ADHD
ADHD/SCT.............SCT/ADHD

Quote:
Distinguishing sluggish cognitive tempo from attention-deficit/hyperactivity disorder in adults.

Abstract

Researchers who study subtypes of attention-deficit/hyperactivity disorder (ADHD) in children have identified a subset having a sluggish cognitive tempo (SCT) typified by symptoms of daydreaming, mental confusion, sluggish–lethargic behavior, and hypoactivity, among others who differ in many respects from ADHD. No studies have examined the nature and correlates of SCT in adults. This study sought to do so using a general population sample in which those having high levels of SCT symptoms were identified (≥95th percentile) and compared to adults having high levels of ADHD symptoms and adults having both SCT and ADHD symptoms. From a representative sample of 1,249 U.S. adults 18–96 years four groups were created: (a) high levels of SCT but not ADHD (N = 33), (b) high levels of ADHD but not SCT (N = 46), (c) high levels of both SCT and ADHD (N = 39), and (d) the remaining adults as a control group (N = 1,131). As in children, SCT formed a distinct dimension from ADHD symptoms that was unrelated to age, sex, or ethnicity. Adults in both ADHD groups were younger than those with SCT only or control adults. The SCT-only group had less education than the control group, whereas both SCT groups earned less annual income than the control or ADHD-only group. More individuals in the combined group were out of work on disability. In their EF, both SCT groups reported greater difficulties with self-organization and problem solving than controls or the ADHD-only group. Otherwise, the SCT + ADHD group reported significantly greater problems with all other domains of EF than the other groups. But both the SCT-only and ADHD-only groups had significantly more EF difficulties than controls though not differing from each other. A similar pattern was evident on most ratings of psychosocial impairment, except in work and education where SCT was more impairing than ADHD alone and in driving where ADHD was more impairing. SCT contributed unique variance to EF deficits and psychosocial impairment apart from ADHD inattention and hyperactive–impulsive symptoms. Results further suggested that a symptom threshold of 5 or more out of 9 along with a requirement of impairment would result in 5.1% of the population as having SCT. It is concluded that SCT may be a separate disorder from ADHD yet with comorbidity occurring in approximately half of all cases of each. (PsycINFO Database Record (c) 2016 APA, all rights reserved)


http://psycnet.apa.org/buy/2011-10368-001
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Last edited by mildadhd; 02-06-18 at 07:53 PM.. Reason: Not sure if I am reading correctly so removed remark to avoid unnessary confusion
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Old 02-06-18, 08:11 PM
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Re: Questions about so called SCT?




3 adults have ADHD symptoms (without SCT symptoms) (left circle)

6 adults have ADHD symptoms and SCT symptoms (overlapping circles)

3 adults have SCT symptoms (without ADHD symptoms) (right circle)



Ratio 1:2:1

Twice as likely to have ADHD symptoms and SCT symptoms, than ADHD symptoms (without SCT symptoms), or, SCT symptoms (without ADHD symptoms).




M
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Old 02-06-18, 10:21 PM
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Re: Questions about so called SCT?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mildadhd View Post
3 adults have ADHD symptoms (without SCT symptoms) (left circle)
6 adults have ADHD symptoms and SCT symptoms (overlapping circles)
3 adults have SCT symptoms (without ADHD symptoms) (right circle)
Ratio 1:2:1
Twice as likely to have ADHD symptoms and SCT symptoms, than ADHD symptoms (without SCT symptoms), or, SCT symptoms (without ADHD symptoms).
If 3 adults have ADHD symptoms without SCT symptoms (far left),
and 6 adults have ADHD symptoms and SCT symptoms (center),
then there are 9 adults total in the left circle (including the far-left area and the center overlapping area).

Those are all the adults with ADHD.

If 3 adults have SCT symptoms without ADHD symptoms (far right),
and 6 adults have SCT symptoms and ADHD symptoms (center),
then there are 9 adults total in the right circle (including the far-right area and the center overlapping area).

Those are all the adults with SCT.

If 6 of the 9 total adults with ADHD have SCT, that's 6/9, which reduces to 2/3.

If 6 of the 9 total adults with SCT have ADHD, that's 6/9, which reduces to 2/3.

But we said at the beginning that half of the adults with ADHD have SCT, and half of the adults with SCT have ADHD. So we are looking for ratios of 1:2, not 2:3.

That's why your setup doesn't work -- the ratios you got don't match the conditions we agreed we were considering.

--------------------------------------------------------------

If instead we have

( A B C (D E F) G H I)

where

A, B, and C have ADHD only (far left),

D, E, and F have both ADHD and SCT (center/overlap),

and G, H, and I have SCT only (far right),

we obtain

6 adults with ADHD (far left and center/overlap): A, B, C, D, E, and F,

3 adults with both ADHD and SCT (center/overlap): D, E, and F,

and 6 adults with SCT (center/overlap and far right): D, E, F, G, H, and I.

Then:

3 adults with both ADHD and SCT (D, E, F) / 6 adults total with ADHD (A, B, C, D, E, F)
= 1/2 of adults with ADHD also have SCT

3 adults with both ADHD and SCT (D, E, F) / 6 adults total with SCT (D, E, F, G, H, I)
= 1/2 of adults with SCT also have ADHD.

This matches the ratios we stated were correct at the beginning:
Half of the adults with ADHD have SCT (check!), and half of the adults with SCT have ADHD (check!)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Russell Barkley, SCT fact sheet
a recent survey of U.S. adults (Barkley, 2012a) found that 5.8% of the
sample met criteria for high CDD (SCT) symptoms. Approximately half...of those
participants qualifying for CDD (SCT) had ADHD, yet nearly half did not. [...] Similarly, approximately half of
individuals qualifying for ADHD of any type...also qualified for CDD (SCT).
And with this setup, where the ratios are correct, we see that people are equally likely to have ADHD only (3: A, B, C), ADHD+SCT (3: D, E, F), or SCT only (3: G, H, I).

Last edited by namazu; 02-06-18 at 11:02 PM.. Reason: added line to distinguish bottom from top part of post
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