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  #1  
Old 10-01-05, 02:22 PM
jackiesamgeorge jackiesamgeorge is offline
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Neurofeedback

Has anyone here tried the neurofeedback approach ? If so I'd like to have your thoughts. Thanking you in advance.
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Old 10-01-05, 02:23 PM
jackiesamgeorge jackiesamgeorge is offline
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PS - I've read the thread previously but just wanted to know if anyone has, or is, trying it as an alternative.
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  #3  
Old 10-01-05, 02:42 PM
mctavish23 mctavish23 is offline
 

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I've not yet seen any mainstream research that supports it, however, there are people that think it helps.

Personally, meaning strictly my own opinion, I'm very skeptical.

I'd have to read more ongoing research before I changed my viewpoint.
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Old 10-02-05, 10:56 AM
jackiesamgeorge jackiesamgeorge is offline
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Thanks for that - are you skeptical because of the conflicting theories out there? It seems to me that no-one really agrees with the way to approach it - it being ADD!
Some people are totally against the meds route, others believe in diet and exercise, others in a combination of eveything! There just doesn't seem to be a mainstream answer and everyone's is different - no wonder I'm so confused!
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Old 10-02-05, 11:04 AM
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From Russell Barkley, the worlds leading expert on ADHD.

"Treating at the Point of Performance

An important implication of this model is that the most useful treatments are those in place in natural settings at the point of performance, where the desired behavior is to occur. Ingersoll and Goldstein (1993) say that this “point of performance” seems to be a key concept in the management of those with ADHD. The further away in space and time the location of the intervention from this point of performance is, the less effective it should prove to be for managing or treating those having ADHD. This implication immediately suggests that clinic-delivered treatments, such as play therapy, counseling of the child, neurofeedback, or other such therapies, are not as likely to produce clinically significant improvement in ADHD, if at all, in comparison to treatments undertaken by caregivers in natural settings at the places and times the performance of the desired behavior is to occur. The latter treatments would be programs such as behavior modification that undertake to restructure the natural setting and its contingencies to achieve a change in the desired behavior and to maintain that desired behavior over time".

and..."EEG biofeedback? Very rapid growing treatment service offered out there in the community. A lot of people going back to get biofeedback training, so that they can use this equipment in their practice, this EEG biofeedback. There are no controlled studies of this anywhere in the literature. There are case reports, that’s all, no placebo controlled studies. There was only one placebo controlled study done in 1992 here in the San Francisco Bay Area, and it did not find anything. Once you use the placebo it found no evidence that this was a compelling treatment for AD/HD relative to a placebo intervention".
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Old 10-02-05, 12:49 PM
mctavish23 mctavish23 is offline
 

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My first job out of grad school was in a pain clinic as a biofeedback technician.

I know that a great deal has changed in the delivery of those services, however, I believe they are best applied to headaches and,to some extent, low back pain.

That's stricitly anecdotal;based on my experiences in that capacity.

What have been repeatedly shown to work are (stimulant) meds and (for hyperactive kids), a rewards based behavior managment charting/home token economy.

Thanks again scuro for the post.

Russ essentially qouted those data the first day at Door County; right after he proved that subtest scatter from IQ tests, as well as neuropsych tests were "inappropriate" for diagnosing ADHD.

After the news that individual pyschotherapy didn't work either, I was bummed for like maybe 30 secs,because I knew he'd show us what did work.

That's when he introduced the "point of performance" data.

I'm skeptical because I'm an adult ADHD-Combined type and a Licensed (clinical/child) Psychologist in Minnesota,with a practice of kids between 6-19/20,of which 90-95% are ADHD.

As such, I'm reading constantly and going to workshops, etc.

If the research changes then I'll change with it. That's what you have to do.

For many years now, meds & behavior managment have been found to work ;nothing else.

The research on the overall safety and efficacy of medications to treat ADHD is overwhelmingly positive.

When you get a chance, please check out The U.S.Surgeon General's Report on Mental Health, Chapter 3: Disorders of Infancy,Childhood & Adolescence.

It has excellent info on this subject.

There has been NO dietary or natural supplement dound to work as a clinical treatment for ADHD.

What I mean by that is that there has been no replication of data from any study by outside investigators.

Omega 3 long chain fatty acids (fish oils) have shown the most promise. There's also been some support for a high protein diet.

More importantly though, those data need to prove to be valid & reliable by way of being replicated by other researchers and then getting the same results.
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Old 10-02-05, 12:56 PM
mctavish23 mctavish23 is offline
 

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scuro,

You may already know this, but Russ's 3rd edition of The ADHD Handbook is out now.

He co-authored with Kevin Murphy. Russ has referred to him as being one of, if not THE leading researcher on ADHD in adults.

It's available at the Guilford Press website and Chapter 2 can be read as a sample of the book.

I'm excited because that's where the "Checklist's trump tests" data are.

Take care and thanks again for all the excellent posts.

mctavish23 (Robert)
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Old 10-03-05, 06:43 AM
jackiesamgeorge jackiesamgeorge is offline
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Thanks Scuro and Robert for the info.fficeffice" />>>

>>

I’ve read Russell Barkley’s book and a few very interesting articles on the net.>>

>>

I finished reading “ADD: The 20-Hour Solution” Siegfried Othmer and I have had my daughter doing neurofeedback for the past couple of months – she has about ten sessions to go. It just seems to take a long time and it’s hugely expensive here. I know the same applies to the ffice:smarttags" />lace w:st="on">USAlace>. >>

>>

Now, I’ve seen changes in her, but this could be because of the onset of puberty or it could be that she’s started believing in herself or it could be that this is working for her. I also saw changes after the fish oils and dietary changes – again this, as you said previously, is beneficial for everyone. >>

>>

What I don’t understand is that IF this works why is it not more available to people? Why are there ONLY case studies out there? Why only efficacy studies? >>
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Old 10-03-05, 06:45 AM
jackiesamgeorge jackiesamgeorge is offline
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sorry about that - I wrote something in word and pasted it here so I suppose the embarrassment smilie fits me ! Won't do it again - promise.
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Old 10-04-05, 12:05 AM
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From Taking charge of ADHD.

"So although we cannot rule out the possibility that EEG biofeedback training might be of some benefit, we cannot consider it a scientifically established effective treatment. Furthmore, a child and family could receive 12 years of stimulant medication, 3 years of weekly group parent training, nearly 31/2 years of twice monthly classroom consultations by a clinical psychologist, or almost 21/2 years for the of twice-weekly educational tutoring for the cost of 6 months of this treatment..."

There is more on page 68
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Old 10-04-05, 04:02 PM
jackiesamgeorge jackiesamgeorge is offline
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But Scuro, this is exactly what I was saying before - no consensus - on neurofeedback. That and the fact of it's expense. Why so expensive? Basic economics will confirm that you could easily sell something at half the price and probably quadrupel your sales! If it works the way it's supposed to work, well, we'd have a society of farmers as opposed to hunters ( brilliant book by the way - it makes you look at ADD in a whole different light, just can't for the life of me remember who wrote it off hand).
The meds work for some but not for all. One just has to look at the various messages from groups in yahoo to see that.
And this, from " A Symphony in the Brain" - Jim Robbins : " Lubar and others feel they are being held to a very high standard of proof, not for scientific reasons, but because of an irrational prejudice against biofeedback. Another problem is the fact that biofeedback doesn't fit neatly into any category". Joel Lubar is supposed to be one of the best in this field.
I'll go on - " "There's something else at work " in the criticism of neurofeedback, Strohmayer believes. " As medical spending is cut back, there's a turf war for health care dollars. Neurofeedback is a major threat to the medical industrial complex. It doesn't fit in. It's not something they can package and sell, like drugs and make large amounts of money". Yet the cost of neurofeedback is excessively high as you have pointed out in your previous post and I happen to agree with. I ask the same question again - Why?
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  #12  
Old 10-05-05, 12:40 AM
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I once saw some Dyslexic program...teaching phonics with clay. According to them, it had to be 3d or it wouldn't work. It cost an arm and a leg too. The concept was actually interesting and intelligent. But it doesn't mean squat unless you can clinically prove that it works. Scientists and Doctors are not cogs in the wheel. They want to help people. If the cure was there...it would be out to the public in no time flat.

Thing is about that Dyslexia program, some smart person came up with this, and the person trying to sell it in our school was the father of one of our gifted children. We have geniuses on this board who truly believe a multitude of things will cure ADHD. Why do they grasp at straws? Why did Steve McQueen go to Mexico for the miracle cancer cure? Basically, for a good deal of them, they have not gotten to the stage of acceptance that there is a really a very significant problem that is not going to go away.

ADHD is not a nutritional input disorder, it is not a learned disorder, or skill set disorder. Why do meds work so amazingly(92%) for most classic ADHD people? Because something at the "synaptic gap" level is not working as it should. Less activity less neural connections...less brain weight or size. I think it may be as simple as that. I'd bet that the parts of the brain that deal with self regulation are the parts that have less activity.
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Old 10-05-05, 03:24 AM
jackiesamgeorge jackiesamgeorge is offline
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When my daughter was diagnosed with ADD just over a year and a half ago I must admit I was devastated, went through the whole denial thing and decided I was going to "fix" My fist "fix" was to read as much as I could about it on the net and in book form - very anal that way! This is how I came to find out about neurofeedback.
What it is doing ( and I can only speak for her ) is helping her "train" her brain through visual and audio feedback - much like Pavlov and Skinner's conditioning - that's the only thing I can equate it to.
I'm sure you know how it works but it is very interesting to see it in action. Basically she is able to inhibit the theta whilst stimulating the SMR waves. I know that theta is more prevalent in children under the age of 13 and that this seems to fade after the age of 13 - but maybe, and this is a huge jump in my logic, not in ADDers. Neurofeedback makes her feel that she is more in control of her brain. Or it could be a simple case of - I think, therefore I am!
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Old 10-05-05, 10:44 AM
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Jackiesamgeorge, how long will your daughter continue the neurofeedback treatment?
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Old 10-05-05, 12:19 PM
jackiesamgeorge jackiesamgeorge is offline
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She has about 10 sessions left before she hits the 40 mark which is about the norm, so I'm told. Why? Have you tried it?
I want to be finished with it before the end of November as this is when the school year closes here. I've been really careful not to introduce any other alternative theories and am monitoring this really closely. I will probably take her for a session before the start of school in January just to see what is happening - if the sessions have stuck with her.
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