Barkley's take on the hunter/gather theory of ADHD

[scuro]

Originally Posted by meadd823

In the school class room hyperactivity is an impairment. To say that AD/HD traits could NEVER have been an advantage in our ancestral environment simple because AD/HD is a disadvantage in classromms NOW defies logic.

Well now, would ADHD really ever be such an advantage that a society would start to selectively breed more ADHDers? Personally, my opinion would be no. The lack of inhibition in all of it's forms, would not on the whole, be a consistent advantage...it would be a disadvantage. Not only do you see ADHDers struggling inside the classroom but you also see them struggling outside of the classroom.

Again, this is personal observation, ADHDers are NEVER the most liked kids in a class. They are hardly ever picked as leaders unless they have an attribute or skill that makes them stand out. Even then, they are not typically natural leaders. In a group setting some do achieve wide popularity if they take on the good natured clown role. Not to many ADHDers can do that.

[scuro]

Originally Posted by Uminchu

I further think this lack of empathy leads him to formulate his theories in a way that seem "off" to me.

Take his theories about time management. He says that ADDers just can't sense the future coming. Compare with Thomas Brown, who says they can see it coming, but are unable to appropriately prioritize actions.

Both predict basically the same results, but I am much more drawn to Brown's theory because as an ADDer, I know what I need to do -- I know about the future, honest! -- I just have a hard time convincing my brain that it is important to do things until they are on me.

I dunno...this is a pretty good read. When he talks he usually talks from the perspective of a kid. In that regard I think he is close to the mark. From the horses mouth, and the same lecture(SF2k)



"This one you probably didn’t think about, the psychological sense of time that comes out of this executive function, your ability to sense the passage of time. Why do we have this? To anticipate and get ready for the future. Without this system, by the way, there would be no past tense or any future tense in language, because what are you referring to? When you use past and future tense you are referring to images of the past and anticipation of the future.

So, here’s a prediction, never attempted by any theory of AD/HD. AD/HD delays all of this. Well does it? Do people with AD/HD have problems with sense of time? You’re damn right they do. Do people with AD/HD have trouble anticipating the future? You bet. They live in the now. Like Dennis the Menace, isn’t it always now? Don’t talk to me about tomorrow. Don’t talk to me about next week. Doesn’t matter. Now, now, now.

Here’s an interesting prediction: I predict that if you study young preschool AD/HD children, they will not develop past and future tense in language as early as other children. If my theory is wrong, you won’t find any differences, and that part of the theory is dead. But I will bet you it’s true. I’ve actually already tested it through interviews with parents about AD/HD children. They do not refer to time, the past and future in language as much as other children do. Other children start talking about tomorrow, next week, next month much earlier than AD/HD kids do. AD/HD adults have a terrible sense of time. We have now finished our fifth study of sense of time. AD/HD destroys it, right down to intervals as short as 10 seconds. Time escapes them.

Now, let’s juxtapose that finding with this finding. Modern human culture worships time. The bestselling books in nonfiction section of bookstores are time management books, and you have a disorder that destroys the sense of time. AD/HD is the consummate disorder of time management. We start out living in the now as preschoolers. As we get older, this window opens. Looking back, to look ahead, and it gets wider and wider and wider, until in our early 30s this window is 8-12 weeks out. Most of the decisions you and I are making are for events that lie about 8-12 weeks out. We can anticipate further out, but that’s our average fore-period for decision-making. AD/HD slams that window shut. AD/HD makes you live in the now. What does that mean? It means you will not get ready for the future until it’s here.

So, let me give you another name for AD/HD: time blindness. AD/HD creates a nearsightedness to the future, a temporal myopia, so that the individual is always waiting until the event is here, imminent, before they do anything to get ready. That is a fascinating insight into this disorder, that people with AD/HD have a temporal neglect syndrome. They cannot anticipate events that lie ahead and use it to guide their behavior, and it doesn’t matter how much you talk about the future. They will not get ready for an event until it crosses their time horizon, and their time horizon is right here, smack in front of them. Now you know why everything is left to the last minute all the time, always late, never ready, never prepared, never has materials, right? Do you see how devastating AD/HD in a modern culture would be"?

[Uminchu]

Originally Posted by scuro

I dunno...this is a pretty good read. When he talks he usually talks from the perspective of a kid. In that regard I think he is close to the mark. From the horses mouth, and the same lecture(SF2k)

Yeah, this is what I was referring to. In particular, the last paragraph:

Originally Posted by Barkley2000

So, let me give you another name for AD/HD: time blindness. AD/HD creates a nearsightedness to the future, a temporal myopia, so that the individual is always waiting until the event is here, imminent, before they do anything to get ready. ... They will not get ready for an event until it crosses their time horizon, and their time horizon is right here, smack in front of them. Now you know why everything is left to the last minute all the time, always late, never ready, never prepared, never has materials, right?

I just don't see it this way. I know about events in the future -- I am not "blind" to them. I simply have trouble motivating myself to act on them without some kind of stimulation -- like a deadline, high interest, etc. I have done many things in preparation for events a year or more out if I was sufficiently motivated.

Now, contrast this to Brown's take: He says that prioritization of tasks is mediated by dopamine, and interest/prioritization is primarily an emotional process. Not enough dopamine, not enough motivation.

So you might "know" intellectually that something is important to do, but be unable to (emotionally) motivate yourself to do it. And it can be very frustrating, because you can kind of sit there outside yourself, and say "Why am I (not) doing this? What is wrong with me?"

In short, Brown's theory resonates with me a lot more, because it jibes a lot better with how I experience it.

[meadd823]

They are hardly ever picked as leaders unless they have an attribute or skill that makes them stand out. Even then, they are not typically natural leaders. In a group setting some do achieve wide popularity if they take on the good natured clown role. Not to many ADHDers can do that.

I would defiantly like to see the data "proving" ADDers can't be leaders!!!!! Being a clown is NOT the only way we can achieve popularity among a group!!!! Many of us have charming personalities when NOT being called inept!!!!


Passion can ignite great energy, and when properly directed can be an asset in achieving a goal. Passion can be controlled by temperance…it is occurring right now!!!!!!

I directed my negative feeling toward researching information that reveals just how unfair, and inaccurate this type of thinking is!!! :soapbox: I will allow my sources to speak for me!!!!

Ready or not!!!!!!

Oops wrong game that was hide and go seek (ADD humor)


Source One----------------

http://drbillgallagher.com/adultadh.html

Quote:

Like a supernova, Thomas Apple has been a star and he has self-destructed. He was Nasdaq's vice president of marketing for 11 years. He developed executive program models for major corporations. He's an inventor, a risk-taker, a guy who knows how to get it done. But he is also impulsive, hurried, outspoken, distractible and disorganized. He's been divorced twice, walked off the job when it penned him in and, until a few years ago, this 48-year-old entrepreneur didn't understand why.

------------------------End Source One------------------------

The above article is in line with main stream medicine my point when diagnosis this man had already achieved the label entrepreneur. It also repeats all the negative stuff about untreated ADD many seem to be so fond of. So it should pass the muster.


Source Two------------------

http://www.sengifted.org/articles_co...Children.shtml

Quote:

Many gifted and talented children (and adults) are being mis-diagnosed by psychologists, psychiatrists, pediatricians, and other health care professionals. The most common mis-diagnoses are: Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder (ADHD), Oppositional Defiant Disorder (OD), Obsessive Compulsive Disorder (OCD), and Mood Disorders such as Cyclothymic Disorder, Dysthymic Disorder, Depression, and Bi-Polar Disorder. These common mis-diagnoses stem from an ignorance among professionals about specific social and emotional characteristics of gifted children which are then mistakenly assumed by these professionals to be signs of pathology.

In some situations where gifted children have received a correct diagnosis, giftedness is still a factor that must be considered in treatment, and should really generate a dual diagnosis. For example, existential depression or learning disability, when present in gifted children or adults, requires a different approach because new dimensions are added by the giftedness component. Yet the giftedness component typically is overlooked due to the lack of training and understanding by health care professionals (Webb & Kleine, 1993).

----------------------------End Source Two----------------------

Above is my personal fav.............

Gee it must be the ADD instead of the lack of knowledge about ADD that increases the struggles for those who have ADD.

Gee I wonder why gifted children are often mistakenly diagnosis as having ADD?? Could it be that ADDers are often gifted or that the same traits we ADDers display are the same as those exhibited by gifted person’s??? Either way I will consider my point made!!!!!!

Our attitude can also have a bearing in how we perceive and thus react to our symptoms of ADD. Here is an example of the same traits being viewed in opposing perspectives

Source Three---------------------

http://add.about.com/cs/workplaceiss...epreneur_p.htm

Quote:

ADHD Distracted-Seems to always have something new to think about.
Entrepreneur - Constantly has new ideas for how to improve the business

ADHD - Starts several projects at the same time, may not complete any of them.
Entrepreneur - Flexible. Approaches problems from several different angles, always ready to change direction if that is what is needed

ADHD - Distorted sense of time. For example, will spend hours playing a video game without realizing how much time has passed.
Entrepreneur - Immerses him or herself in the job and often does not realize how much time has passed

ADHD - Visual thinkers
Entrepreneur - Visionaries who paint a picture for others

ADHD - Hands-on learners
Entrepreneur - Hands-on managers

ADHD - Hyperactive
Entrepreneur - Always on the go

Once you understand what AD/HD looks like, you could easily conclude that virtually all successful entrepreneurs have AD/HD. Experts on AD/HD believe that Benjamin Franklin had AD/HD. Coincidentally, Franklin is also thought to be the first American entrepreneur. There is evidence that Thomas Edison had AD/HD, as did Henry Ford, Walt Disney and both of the Wright Brothers. You don't have to go as far back as Edison and Ford to find examples of successful AD/HD entrepreneurs. David Neeleman, CEO of JetBlue, has publicly acknowledged his AD/HD. Neeleman has chosen not to take medication for AD/HD and has instead learned how to use his "unique brain wiring" to his advantage, now that he better understands it.

-------------------------End of Source Three----------------------

I do have more but for the sake of brevity I will end it here!!!!!

Nope no positive attributes could possible be attributed by people with ADD, we don’t make leaders, inventors, or entrepreneurs.

Each has a choice of how to view themselves and their ADD. My opinion is it doesn’t seem to matter if I moan, cry, complain, laugh, ignore, or jump up and down I have ADD or it has me haven’t figured that part out yet!!!!!

I choose to look for positive ways around my weakness. I choose to smile and accept me for me, and do my best to be the best me I can be. I will NOT allow a bunch of “expert’s” negative comments to take away my hope or my happiness!!!!

Peace out!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[scuro]

Now take that bit on time blindness and consider this...also from Barkley.

"This is the definition of an emotion in psychology: It’s a motivational state. If you can’t internalize emotion, you can’t internalize motivation. The third executive function is the source of intrinsic motivation. Let me give you a few words that laypeople use for intrinsic motivation: persistence, determination, ambition, drive, willpower. AD/HD children are not inattentive; they’re impersistent. AD/HD children don’t have an attention deficit; they have a motivation deficit. And the motivation deficit is an intrinsic motivation. They cannot generate the [internalized] motivation to get to the future. All future-directed behavior, all goal-directed behavior, all planned, thoughtful behavior requires intrinsic motivation. Why is that? Because the future hasn’t happened yet. How can it motivate you? You have to generate the motivation yourself. And if you can’t do this, you will not get to your goals, finish your projects, follow through on things, pay attention when things are boring. You will not be able to persist".

[scuro]

Here was my original paragraph. It looks like you jumped to a conclusion or two.

Again, this is personal observation, ADHDers are NEVER the most liked kids in a class. They are hardly ever picked as leaders unless they have an attribute or skill that makes them stand out. Even then, they are not typically natural leaders. In a group setting some do achieve wide popularity if they take on the good natured clown role. Not to many ADHDers can do that.

Originally Posted by meadd823

I would defiantly like to see the data "proving" ADDers can't be leaders!!!!! Being a clown is NOT the only way we can achieve popularity among a group!!!! Many of us have charming personalities when NOT being called inept!!!!

My viewpoint might be totally biased, that's why I qualified it. I see a dozen or two ADHD kids in a day. I thought someone would find those observations to be possibly interesting. Would you like me to flush it out a bit more?

[Uminchu]

Originally Posted by scuro

Now take that bit on time blindness and consider this...also from Barkley.

"... If you can’t internalize emotion, you can’t internalize motivation. The third executive function is the source of intrinsic motivation. ... AD/HD children are not inattentive; they’re impersistent. AD/HD children don’t have an attention deficit; they have a motivation deficit. ... They cannot generate the [internalized] motivation to get to the future. All future-directed behavior, all goal-directed behavior, all planned, thoughtful behavior requires intrinsic motivation. Why is that? Because the future hasn’t happened yet. How can it motivate you? You have to generate the motivation yourself. ...

Getting closer However, I still think he is not totally right. It's not the futureness per se, it's the lack of motivation. The lack of motivation doesn't have to be for some future event -- it could be right now.

As I said, I have done lots of things that took significant prior planning. I somehow got motivated to do them, despite their "futureness." Being in the future, hence more abstract, might make something more difficult to get motivated for, but I don't think this is the crux of it. I think the key is stimulation -- interest, deadline, reward, anxiety, etc.

So, I have to say that I still like Brown's take, although this is getting closer.

[scuro]

Originally Posted by Uminchu

Getting closer
So, I have to say that I still like Brown's take, although this is getting closer.

I should read Brown. Was his book an engrossing read?

[Uminchu]

Originally Posted by scuro

I should read Brown. Was his book an engrossing read?

Actually, it is kind of boring. Barkley is a much better writer/speaker. But the content is fascinating. I found myself nodding in agreement pretty much all the way through.

[barbyma]

Originally Posted by Uminchu

So you might "know" intellectually that something is important to do, but be unable to (emotionally) motivate yourself to do it.

Or, like me, you might be know it's important, be motivated enough to do it, then find out that the harder you try to force yourself to do it, the harder it is to do.

This is the state I was in before seeking a diagnosis.

I thought my problems were motivational; that I'd rather be doing something else. It's true, I would. But when I engaged my strong will and discipline and forced myself to do it (in this case, "it" is studying), I absolutely could not do it. It was quite like the task of studying used up all the dopamine. It got more and more difficult until I couldn't read anymore and my head pounded for weeks nonstop.

I think we avoid what's difficult to pay attention to. If we only need to do those difficult things once in a while, it's not too bad; we can replenish our dopamine. But, if we HAVE to KEEP doing them, we deplete our dopamine in the task of trying to concentrate.

[Uminchu]

Originally Posted by barbyma

Or, like me, you might be know it's important, be motivated enough to do it, then find out that the harder you try to force yourself to do it, the harder it is to do.

Yes, I get like this a lot. I will "force" myself to do something, no distractions -- and just sit there and stare at it, mind wandering off every 10 seconds. My take was that in these cases, I was intellectually motivated -- I know I must do this -- but not emotionally "bought in." Force of will can provide enough stimulation to concentrate, but it seldom lasts.

[scuro]

Originally Posted by Uminchu

Actually, it is kind of boring. Barkley is a much better writer/speaker. But the content is fascinating. I found myself nodding in agreement pretty much all the way through.

He is a better speaker then writer. It's like he has a little on switch when he talks in public. He tells jokes too and they can be cutting. Like that comment about not hunting with an unmedicated person with ADHD. That was a jab at Hartmann. I'm sure he never did that lecture with the intention of having it transcribed. That edge...that sharpness to some of his remarks, makes me think that he might have ADHD. He would call it difficulties with emotional regulation. Don't you find that ADHD people can be really snarky?

[barbyma]

Originally Posted by Uminchu

Force of will can provide enough stimulation to concentrate, but it seldom lasts.

I would certainly agree, but when it came down to an absolute need to get it done, it was not longer a matter of even keeping on task. Being on task wasn't enough to keep the processors going. I found myself unable to operate cognitively. It was like rusted gears grinding to a hault. A complete hault.

[Uminchu]

Originally Posted by barbyma

I would certainly agree, but when it came down to an absolute need to get it done, it was not longer a matter of even keeping on task. Being on task wasn't enough to keep the processors going. I found myself unable to operate cognitively. It was like rusted gears grinding to a hault. A complete hault.

Yep! You just sit there, staring at the page, or computer screen, or whatever.

Before I knew about ADHD, that's the time I would tell myself I needed to "recharge" my brain, which usually amounted to playing a violent video game, watching a mindless and violent video, going to judo, lifting some weights, ... you get the picture.

[barbyma]

Originally Posted by Uminchu

Before I knew about ADHD, that's the time I would tell myself I needed to "recharge" my brain, which usually amounted to playing a violent video game, watching a mindless and violent video, going to judo, lifting some weights, ... you get the picture.

Yep. ANYTHING to avoid admitting to yourself that something is SERIOUSLY WRONG.

I kept thinking, I'm just tired (even though I'd gotten 8-10 hours of sleep). Or I've just got a lot on my mind (like planning my vacations for the next 3 years?). Or I'm just not really interested in this stuff (then why am I devoting so much of my life to it?).

I think I just didn't want to be a cry-baby. Or I thought that nobody would take me seriously if I had bipolar disorder AND ADD! Argh.