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  #256  
Old 12-15-09, 10:29 AM
d3xter404 d3xter404 is offline
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Re: Sluggish Cognitive Tempo (SCT)

I stumbled across a facebook group that discusses SCT. I haven't really looked through it yet, but I figured the more resources available and the better shared and networked the pockets of info are, the more we can all learn.



Additionally, has anyone tried provigil (modafinil) for SCTish symptoms? What were your results?

I've read that provigil's mechanism of action may be the electro-tonic binding of groups of neurons together. This might decrease the neuronal noise due to the larger ion flows required to create an action potential (since the ions are shared among several neurons, requiring more to reach that critical level). It also potentially increases the synchronicity of neuron populations, also boosting the signal to noise ratio. I've also read that this type of action could lead to better EEG patterns, assumingly because the neurons are operating in a more coordinated and efficient manner and not going off and doing their own thing.

This is a combination of internet research on provigil, neuron related reseach, and my own speculation, so don't take it as gospel. There are some other factors that play in and help support this basic idea, but I can't remember it all off the top of my head and don't have time to re-look it up. But thoughts, both pro and con are welcome.

My experiences with traditional stimulants and straterra/wellbutrin seem to conform somewhat with this theory. That is, taking stimulants, etc. seems to improve some symptoms by giving energy, waking me up, and speeding me up. But my thoughts are not as 'elegant' as I would hope normal to be. My working memory is still horrible and my thoughts fleeting and sometimes disjointed. My theory is that normal stimulants are increasing the firing rate, but not addressing the coordination by improving synchonicity, thus the encoding/modeling complexity that can be achieved by the smaller neuron populations has not really improved. And the signal/noise ratio is still low because the noise is likely as amplified as the signal since the stimulants are likely just lowering the effort required to reach an action potential.

I'm also curious if anyone has investigated hypo-thyroidism or sub-clinical hypo-thyroidism. Why some criteria seem very fitting, there are a few that don't. But that's probably to be expected for any such list.

Last edited by meadd823; 12-18-09 at 12:06 AM.. Reason: hyperlink to other groups removed please see guidelines
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  #257  
Old 12-15-09, 11:47 AM
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Re: Sluggish Cognitive Tempo (SCT)

that's interesting!

I don't know what Provigil is though, have to look that up ...

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Originally Posted by d3xter404 View Post
I'm also curious if anyone has investigated hypo-thyroidism or sub-clinical hypo-thyroidism. Why some criteria seem very fitting, there are a few that don't. But that's probably to be expected for any such list.
I'm also hypo-thyroid. That was diagnosed two years before ADD was - and to be honest, even though my then GP told me that I would start feeling a lot better if that was taken care of: nothing much happened when that was corrected after a few increases and blood tests.
I still felt as distracted, had the same working memory problems and whatnot as ever before.
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  #258  
Old 12-17-09, 01:34 AM
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Re: Sluggish Cognitive Tempo (SCT)

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Originally Posted by Luthien View Post
that's interesting!

I don't know what Provigil is though, have to look that up ...



I'm also hypo-thyroid. That was diagnosed two years before ADD was - and to be honest, even though my then GP told me that I would start feeling a lot better if that was taken care of: nothing much happened when that was corrected after a few increases and blood tests.
I still felt as distracted, had the same working memory problems and whatnot as ever before.


One of my thyroids is slightly below normal, but the other two are normal. The doctors said I was fine... so you think this would make a difference?
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  #259  
Old 12-18-09, 12:27 PM
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Re: Sluggish Cognitive Tempo (SCT)

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One of my thyroids is slightly below normal, but the other two are normal. The doctors said I was fine... so you think this would make a difference?
My then manager at UBC family practice, who also was a physician, drew me a diagram to explain how the mechanism worked and that it was a bit more complex than it seemed - that there was some sort of feedback loop involved. So maybe that is what your doc was referring to: that though one hormone was below normal, the other part of the loop apparently could correct for that .. not certain though.

Hmm maybe there is some good info somewhere to Google ...
Ah, I found something I'll copy it below. It turns out to work like this:

the thyroid gland produces two hormones, T3 and T4 which have a similar goal: to set your level of metabolism. You can compare this to the "central heating", and T3 and T4 being the throttles or valves or whatever thing a heater has to control it.

Now, this central heating control has a feedback control: that's the pituitary gland. It senses what the control settings (T3 and T4 blood levels) are like, and can regulate the thyroid gland to produce more or less T3 and T4 by way of sending it more or less TSH - Thyroid Stimulating Hormone.
This assures that the heating runs at an even level.

But the actual temperature in the house - the body metabolism - is controlled by what value this pituitary feedback control is set to. That's done by the hypothalamus - the thermostat of the body, so to speak. If that drops too low, the hypothalamus senses that and sends the pituitary a message to shovel some coal in the engine by way of releasing TRH - TSH Releasing Hormone (TRH) in the bloodstream.


So I suppose what you doc meant was that either your T3 or T4 was a bit too low, but apparently that was countered enough by the other one.

(I'm aware that my analogy is a bit different than the one below - I would think that the hypothalamus acts like the thermostat rather than the pituitary; that the thyroid is more like the heater throttle, the pituitary like the throttle control and the hypothalamus like the thermostat. But that does not make much difference for the whole idea)

==== source ====================

The function of the thyroid gland is to take iodine, found in many foods, and convert it into thyroid hormones: thyroxine (T4) and triiodothyronine (T3). Thyroid cells are the only cells in the body which can absorb iodine. These cells combine iodine and the amino acid tyrosine to make T3 and T4. T3 and T4 are then released into the blood stream and are transported throughout the body where they control metabolism (conversion of oxygen and calories to energy). Every cell in the body depends upon thyroid hormones for regulation of their metabolism. The normal thyroid gland produces about 80% T4 and about 20% T3, however, T3 possesses about four times the hormone "strength" as T4.


The thyroid gland is under the control of the pituitary gland, a small gland the size of a peanut at the base of the brain (shown here in orange). When the level of thyroid hormones (T3 & T4) drops too low, the pituitary gland produces Thyroid Stimulating Hormone (TSH) which stimulates the thyroid gland to produce more hormones. Under the influence of TSH, the thyroid will manufacture and secrete T3 and T4 thereby raising their blood levels. The pituitary senses this and responds by decreasing its TSH production. One can imagine the thyroid gland as a furnace and the pituitary gland as the thermostat. Thyroid hormones are like heat. When the heat gets back to the thermostat, it turns the thermostat off. As the room cools (the thyroid hormone levels drop), the thermostat turns back on (TSH increases) and the furnace produces more heat (thyroid hormones).


The pituitary gland itself is regulated by another gland, known as the hypothalamus (shown in our picture in light blue). The hypothalamus is part of the brain and produces TSH Releasing Hormone (TRH) which tells the pituitary gland to stimulate the thyroid gland (release TSH). One might imagine the hypothalamus as the person who regulates the thermostat since it tells the pituitary gland at what level the thyroid should be set.
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  #260  
Old 12-18-09, 04:02 PM
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Re: Sluggish Cognitive Tempo (SCT)

I actually have tried provigil with quite positive results. I took it in combination with Adderall, I only ceased its use after I thought I was having an allergic reaction to it which in turn was not in fact the case.

In terms of positive results:

*Significantly reduced the overall agitation/mood dampening effect amphetamine has.
*On its own was just like a cup of coffee without the racing thoughts and overall ill sensations coffee can result in.
*A noticeable brightening effect on mood.
*Felt as though it had a cumulative effect on overall cognitive ability.
*Little to no negative side effects.

D3xter, thanks for sharing your hypothesis with regard to Modafinil's mechanism of action in SCT individuals. I would love to read up more or simply discuss. If you can provide any additional links to reading material that'd be stellar !
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  #261  
Old 12-18-09, 08:48 PM
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Re: Sluggish Cognitive Tempo (SCT)

@Luthien: there have been anecdotal reports that n-acetyl l-tyrosine supplements are helpful to a subset of ADD patients. I have yet to try it myself. Iodine supplementation is supposed to be useful in general.
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  #262  
Old 12-18-09, 09:47 PM
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Re: Sluggish Cognitive Tempo (SCT)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Luthien View Post
My then manager at UBC family practice, who also was a physician, drew me a diagram to explain how the mechanism worked and that it was a bit more complex than it seemed - that there was some sort of feedback loop involved. So maybe that is what your doc was referring to: that though one hormone was below normal, the other part of the loop apparently could correct for that .. not certain though.

Hmm maybe there is some good info somewhere to Google ...
Ah, I found something I'll copy it below. It turns out to work like this:

the thyroid gland produces two hormones, T3 and T4 which have a similar goal: to set your level of metabolism. You can compare this to the "central heating", and T3 and T4 being the throttles or valves or whatever thing a heater has to control it.

Now, this central heating control has a feedback control: that's the pituitary gland. It senses what the control settings (T3 and T4 blood levels) are like, and can regulate the thyroid gland to produce more or less T3 and T4 by way of sending it more or less TSH - Thyroid Stimulating Hormone.
This assures that the heating runs at an even level.

But the actual temperature in the house - the body metabolism - is controlled by what value this pituitary feedback control is set to. That's done by the hypothalamus - the thermostat of the body, so to speak. If that drops too low, the hypothalamus senses that and sends the pituitary a message to shovel some coal in the engine by way of releasing TRH - TSH Releasing Hormone (TRH) in the bloodstream.


So I suppose what you doc meant was that either your T3 or T4 was a bit too low, but apparently that was countered enough by the other one.

(I'm aware that my analogy is a bit different than the one below - I would think that the hypothalamus acts like the thermostat rather than the pituitary; that the thyroid is more like the heater throttle, the pituitary like the throttle control and the hypothalamus like the thermostat. But that does not make much difference for the whole idea)

==== source ====================

The function of the thyroid gland is to take iodine, found in many foods, and convert it into thyroid hormones: thyroxine (T4) and triiodothyronine (T3). Thyroid cells are the only cells in the body which can absorb iodine. These cells combine iodine and the amino acid tyrosine to make T3 and T4. T3 and T4 are then released into the blood stream and are transported throughout the body where they control metabolism (conversion of oxygen and calories to energy). Every cell in the body depends upon thyroid hormones for regulation of their metabolism. The normal thyroid gland produces about 80% T4 and about 20% T3, however, T3 possesses about four times the hormone "strength" as T4.


The thyroid gland is under the control of the pituitary gland, a small gland the size of a peanut at the base of the brain (shown here in orange). When the level of thyroid hormones (T3 & T4) drops too low, the pituitary gland produces Thyroid Stimulating Hormone (TSH) which stimulates the thyroid gland to produce more hormones. Under the influence of TSH, the thyroid will manufacture and secrete T3 and T4 thereby raising their blood levels. The pituitary senses this and responds by decreasing its TSH production. One can imagine the thyroid gland as a furnace and the pituitary gland as the thermostat. Thyroid hormones are like heat. When the heat gets back to the thermostat, it turns the thermostat off. As the room cools (the thyroid hormone levels drop), the thermostat turns back on (TSH increases) and the furnace produces more heat (thyroid hormones).


The pituitary gland itself is regulated by another gland, known as the hypothalamus (shown in our picture in light blue). The hypothalamus is part of the brain and produces TSH Releasing Hormone (TRH) which tells the pituitary gland to stimulate the thyroid gland (release TSH). One might imagine the hypothalamus as the person who regulates the thermostat since it tells the pituitary gland at what level the thyroid should be set.


Are you confusing me with someone else? This is the first time I posted in this thread lol... I'm trying to understand, if the thyroid level is slightly below normal, could it still cause problems that cannot be seen from a simple blood test?
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  #263  
Old 12-25-09, 02:46 PM
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Re: Sluggish Cognitive Tempo (SCT)

I just found out about SCT and know this is what I have suffered from all my life. I thought it was chronic fatigue syndrome because I had Epstein Barr at 15 and this is when I can remember the fatigue and lack of motivation starting. But this is also when school work got harder and I couldn't just get by. I never read a book in high school or studied for a test in my life. I couldn't even hold my head up in class. Always had my head down. Would go to the library and sleep every chance I got. I am 49 now and have been trying to find out what is wrong with my for 12 years. I was told by drs. "You have children you're tired from that". I would always ask friends "Are you really tired" , no one ever said yes. 4 years ago we met a couple and they joined my family and I on vacation in NH. I lay in a cot next to them and my husband play cards and games for a week. The husband said to my husband "Something is not right with your wife" and my husband said she always like that. That's when I finally realized what I felt in my heart since I was 15 that I wasn't like everyone else. I always felt why don't I fit in. I look like all the popular girls, I have the same stuff as them, but why do they raise their hands in class, why do they give I damn, cause I couldn't even stay awake to listen to the teacher.
Well as time went on my husband was getting madder and madder at how sloppy our house was, and that I didn't do dishes, or like to cook, or put laundry away. I just went on the computer and read all day and night.
With the description of SCT I find that this is all we feel like doing because of no motivation. I can't even make myself walk my dog around the block.
I take adderal xr 20 mg. but this barely helps. What are we to do in order to live productive lives. I am such a horrible role model for my kids. I don't feel like doing anything ever. It's so awful and nobody understands. I sure hope there's reincarnation and I get a second go around because I've missed a whole lot of living.
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Old 12-25-09, 03:07 PM
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Re: Sluggish Cognitive Tempo (SCT)

Quote:
Originally Posted by tototwo View Post
I just found out about SCT and know this is what I have suffered from all my life. I thought it was chronic fatigue syndrome because I had Epstein Barr at 15 and this is when I can remember the fatigue and lack of motivation starting. But this is also when school work got harder and I couldn't just get by. I never read a book in high school or studied for a test in my life. I couldn't even hold my head up in class. Always had my head down. Would go to the library and sleep every chance I got. I am 49 now and have been trying to find out what is wrong with my for 12 years. I was told by drs. "You have children you're tired from that". I would always ask friends "Are you really tired" , no one ever said yes. 4 years ago we met a couple and they joined my family and I on vacation in NH. I lay in a cot next to them and my husband play cards and games for a week. The husband said to my husband "Something is not right with your wife" and my husband said she always like that. That's when I finally realized what I felt in my heart since I was 15 that I wasn't like everyone else. I always felt why don't I fit in. I look like all the popular girls, I have the same stuff as them, but why do they raise their hands in class, why do they give I damn, cause I couldn't even stay awake to listen to the teacher.
Well as time went on my husband was getting madder and madder at how sloppy our house was, and that I didn't do dishes, or like to cook, or put laundry away. I just went on the computer and read all day and night.
With the description of SCT I find that this is all we feel like doing because of no motivation. I can't even make myself walk my dog around the block.
I take adderal xr 20 mg. but this barely helps. What are we to do in order to live productive lives. I am such a horrible role model for my kids. I don't feel like doing anything ever. It's so awful and nobody understands. I sure hope there's reincarnation and I get a second go around because I've missed a whole lot of living.
Hey try looking into B complex/ energy giving vitamins. They've helped me a lot. Fish oil also has certain properties that enable to function like an energy drink.

I'm always tired and before I started taking it, I was sleeping 9-12 hours a day. Now I can't sleep longer than 9 hours before my body wakes itself up. The B complex (Jarrow formula) has a lot of active ingredients that help increase mental stamina and focus, and also helps generate dopamine which is responsible for a lot of focus.
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  #265  
Old 12-25-09, 04:47 PM
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Re: Sluggish Cognitive Tempo (SCT)

Quote:
Originally Posted by tototwo View Post
I just found out about SCT and know this is what I have suffered from all my life. I thought it was chronic fatigue syndrome because I had Epstein Barr at 15 and this is when I can remember the fatigue and lack of motivation starting. But this is also when school work got harder and I couldn't just get by. I never read a book in high school or studied for a test in my life. I couldn't even hold my head up in class. Always had my head down. Would go to the library and sleep every chance I got. I am 49 now and have been trying to find out what is wrong with my for 12 years. I was told by drs. "You have children you're tired from that". I would always ask friends "Are you really tired" , no one ever said yes. 4 years ago we met a couple and they joined my family and I on vacation in NH. I lay in a cot next to them and my husband play cards and games for a week. The husband said to my husband "Something is not right with your wife" and my husband said she always like that. That's when I finally realized what I felt in my heart since I was 15 that I wasn't like everyone else. I always felt why don't I fit in. I look like all the popular girls, I have the same stuff as them, but why do they raise their hands in class, why do they give I damn, cause I couldn't even stay awake to listen to the teacher.
Well as time went on my husband was getting madder and madder at how sloppy our house was, and that I didn't do dishes, or like to cook, or put laundry away. I just went on the computer and read all day and night.
With the description of SCT I find that this is all we feel like doing because of no motivation. I can't even make myself walk my dog around the block.
I take adderal xr 20 mg. but this barely helps. What are we to do in order to live productive lives. I am such a horrible role model for my kids. I don't feel like doing anything ever. It's so awful and nobody understands. I sure hope there's reincarnation and I get a second go around because I've missed a whole lot of living.
I can relate to being tired all the time. I would get up in the morning and after taking my shower, I felt like going back to bed. But what scared me the most was when I would be driving in the car on my way to work and other times throughout the day when I would have to fight to stay awake and sometimes I would actually nod off for a second while driving!! I was in my mid-twenties when I first went to the doctor's for this problem but they couldn't find anything wrong. I took some multi vitamins, although I hadn't tried any mega doses, and that didn't help. Eventually, another doctor asked me some questions about when I was tired and I told him all the time. He told me I needed to exercise and he said it would be difficult at first but after a few weeks to a month I would see a noticeable difference. It did help quite a bit and I kept up with it for a long time.

Fast forward quite a few years and differences in my life did not always allot me the time to exercise. When I wasn't working I could at least take naps but at work I would have an awful afternoon slump where I could barely stay awake. The highlight of my weekend was Sunday afternoon when I would come home from church and take my afternoon nap. I thought about that nap the whole way home from church.

In 2008, at age 47, I was finally diagnosed with inattentive ADHD. I had also come across some information about SCT and realized that I fit that description perfectly. The doctor put me on Vyvanse at 140 mg. (This is roughly equivalent to 60 mg. of Adderall XR ). I couldn't believe the difference it made. Besides the improvement in my ADD symptoms, I noticed I wasn't tired anymore. It was several weeks before I even realized that I hadn't taken any Sunday afternoon naps!! I wasn't tired in the least. I took my medication faithfully but one day I had forgotten to take it and I was away from home and was wondering why I felt so tired around noon time. It seemed strange until I remembered that I hadn't taken my medication that day. That confirmed it in my mind that the medication really did make a huge difference in how tired I was or wasn't.

A few months ago I lost my job and subsequently my health insurance. I was able to get some of my medication free through the manufacturer of Vyvanse but only at half the dose I normally took. Most days I take the 70 mg.to save money but if I have an important interview or when I had a temp job for two weeks, I took the full 140 mg. dose. There is a considerable difference. I'm a little tired at the 70 mg. but not as bad as I was without any meds. I have no problem at the 140 mg. dose.

My husband takes 60 mg. of Adderall XR and it is not an unusual dose. You may possibly need an increase in your dosage. Studies have shown that many doctors underdose and do not use the optimum dose. I do have some improvement at 70 mg. but not as much at the 140 mg. dose.
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  #266  
Old 12-27-09, 02:35 PM
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Re: Sluggish Cognitive Tempo (SCT)

Sluggish Cognitive Tempo, Winnie the Pooh has always been the poster boy for Primarily Inattentive ADHD. In my opinion, there are a subset of ADHD PI individuals that have sluggishness but that many Primarily Inattentive Adhd folks have none of the slowness seen in SCT.

There are, however, many of us with ADHD that have concurring problems with depression, anxiety, etc. My theory is that the sluggishness may be coming from the comorbidity (the medical term for concurring medical problems) of depression. Depression often manifests itself as lethargy and apathy.

I have written a blog piece on Winnie the Pooh and a blog piece of comorbidities.

http://primarilyinattentiveadd.blogs...her-robin.html

http://primarilyinattentiveadd.blogs...ults-with.html

Just a thought, anyway. Tess
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Old 12-28-09, 02:16 PM
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Re: Sluggish Cognitive Tempo (SCT)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Keep0nkeepn0n View Post
D3xter, thanks for sharing your hypothesis with regard to Modafinil's mechanism of action in SCT individuals. I would love to read up more or simply discuss. If you can provide any additional links to reading material that'd be stellar !
I didn't save the links I was reading, but some key words to search for on wikipedia and google are: electrotonic coupling, neural populations, neural encoding, and of course - modafinil.

I'm also curious how many of you have a few of the following symptoms (which aren't often discussed, but could be relevant given the brain structures involved in ADHD-PI/SCT and the symptoms):
Lack of sense of smell
Lack of emotions/feelings (ie not strongly felt or not often)
Tendency to not drink or eat, even though you might be thirsty/hungry (ie. you recognize your body is calling for food/water, but you just aren't really driven to address the issue. For instance, I will skip meals or not get up to get a glass of water just because... i'm not sure why, it isn't that I'm THAT lazy or I don't think I need it).
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Old 12-28-09, 09:03 PM
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Re: Sluggish Cognitive Tempo (SCT)

Quote:
Originally Posted by d3xter404 View Post
I'm also curious how many of you have a few of the following symptoms (which aren't often discussed, but could be relevant given the brain structures involved in ADHD-PI/SCT and the symptoms):
Lack of sense of smell
Lack of emotions/feelings (ie not strongly felt or not often)
Tendency to not drink or eat,.
Smell - I think my sense of smell is enhanced. I am always noticing gas leaks that are too small of the gas company to care about. I notice orders before the rest of the family.

Lack of emtoions - Yes. It is a personality trait - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/INTP

Hunger - Yes, to a degree, I am not in touch with this. I have trouble finding leftovers in the fridge, and forget until it is too late. . .

-Also-
When I was diagnosed last summer with ADHD-PI at an age in my upper 30s, I kept telling the doctors it is really like I have excessive daytime sleepiness instead or in addition to it. They either didn't know or just did not tell me that it often accompanies ADHD-PI. Everything seems to center around the tiredness, even though it is ADHD-PI or SCT. It is not from depression. I never had that and tend to be unemotional.

-Delayed Sleep Phase Syndrome-
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delayed...phase_syndrome
Does its symptoms sound familar?

-Modafinil-
Nuvigil is out and the manufacturer is making it economically attractive in comparison to modafinil. It is the stronger stereoisotope of Modafinil. I tried taking it with Adderall XR but could not get the dose right. Alone it didn't seem to do enough, combined it was too strong.
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Old 01-12-10, 09:16 PM
T_mundell T_mundell is offline
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Post Re: Sluggish Cognitive Tempo (SCT)

I've been doing research on mental stability, nutrition, and anything to do with health. Out of all my research, the craziest thing happened. My Dad calls me about a product that he been taking. Since he started taking it. He has had an incredible turn around. He lost 15 lbs. His vision has become better. He literally went to the doctor and changed his prescription glasses in for a weaker prescription. He looks great! He is full of energy and has become an incredibly new person full of life. Of coarse, I jumped right in because I saw these changes first hand. I have been taking it for a couple of months now, so has my sister, my girlfriend and some of my friends. We all have similar stories. I will not promote a specific site because I don't believe it to be right, but the name of the product is Genewize. It's crazy!!! How well it has worked and how great we all feel. You send off your DNA and they test it at no cost and custom make you a suppliment. It's 100% specifically what your body needs. No more, no less. It's like the FUTURE OF HEALTH has come to an end. It's here!!! Seriously where else can it go. They are down to your DNA. They analyze it and send you a booklet breaking it all down, explaining all you snp's and what they are putting in your suppliment and why. Then they encourage you to bring it to your doctor so he'll have it on file as well. I'm telling you, I have been labeled depressed, manic. Even my counselor is blown away. I'm not forsure what's allowed and not allowed here yet because I'm new. I would post my phone number so you could call me directly or call my Dad. Either one of us would love to go on & on about this. My sister or my girl friend would tell you the exact same thing. It's freaking nuts!!! I know that's not to professional or politically correct language but, Hay! It's just how I talk.
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Old 01-13-10, 08:01 AM
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Luthien Luthien is offline
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Re: Sluggish Cognitive Tempo (SCT)

you know? I tend to be a little cautious about stories that sound "too good to be true". The thing about them is that they usually are.

There are just a tad too many, and too loud adverbs in stories like this .. I admit, it's a gut feeling. But I usually trust my gut feeling in matters like this.

Here's a critical article about Genewize.

Sorry that I am not more enthusiastic .. but one personal hallelujah story does not convince me, no matter how good your experience is. I would be convinced easier if the whole thing sounded more moderate, thoughtful.
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