A matter of degree?

[Bob1951]

There are a number of non-drug alternatives posts to manage ADHD on ADHD boards, some emphatically (albeit tacticly) say that their non-drug alternative is the answer. I don't doubt their sincerity but do doubt their accuracy. Simply put, I think such posts are sincerely wrong.

IQ tests measure intelligence potential. That is to say the higher your IQ, the easier it is for you to learn academia. I think IQ tests are powerful tools in the hands of skilled psychologists. IQ tests can help determine if a student's failure is lack of ability or some other problem.

What is the difference between and IQ of 100 and 80? The person with an IQ of 100 can learn easier than one with the 80. Nothing more or less.

Psychologists have determined (rightly so in my opinion) that an IQ of 70 or less disables a person from functioning within society. That being said, an IQ of 60 means said person has a hell of time learning basic skills such as adding, subtracting, and anything more than a very basic vocabulary.

Is ability to sustain focus any different? I think not. I took a TOVA test which uses an IQ like scale. That is, 100 means a population sample averages out at 100. 80% of the population comes in between 80 and 120 - just like an IQ test. An attention potential of 100 ranks at the 50 percentile just like scales used to measure other cognitive functions.

So what is your sustained attention potential? I'll tell you mine. On accuracy, I come in at slightly above average - 102. On response speed and variability of response speed, I come in at about 50 average.

The psychologist explained to me that response speed and variability of response speed were the parameters he was most interested in. Why? Because an adult trying his damnest to put in a good showing in a clinical setting will usually do well on accuracy. But the other parameters showed me falling apart over time in my desperate attempts to maintain focus.

At one point, I actually dropped below 40, that is, off the botton of the scale. You know what that makes me? A freaking sustainable attention RETART.

That is why nothing, I mean nothing, absolutely nothing other than SPEED works for me. Don't even think about arguing cause I've tried them all in vain attempt to avoid stimulant drugs. NOTHING ELSE WORKS.

Want to know what my response speed and variability of response speed is on stimulants? Glad you asked. Now I can brag. Response speed was off the chart, that is, at one point went above 140 - we are talking about the response speed of a 25 year old jet fighter pilot. Variability? Averaged out at 137. Damn, not off the scale, but not bad either.

Listen, boys and girls, if a non-drug therapy works for you, fantastic. Otherwise, stop shooting yourself in the foot, correction, stop blowing your leg off by trying to avoid the ONLY THING that will work for you. Your freaking prefrontal cortex is understimulated. Good grief, wake it and live - for the first time in most cases.

Just say 'yes' to drugs.

Bob

[Lunacie]

Wow, do you work for a pharmaceutical company? I'm glad that whatever drug you're taking works for you. Many people struggle for years to find the correct drug and the correct dosage to get the maximum benefit with the fewest side effects. And then in a year or two many find that the benefit has decreased and the whole pony-and-cart-show starts all over again.

For me - at this point - with my allergic reactions to so many things including prescription drugs, it's just not worth the risk of a reaction and it's not worth dealing with the side effects.

[Uminchu]

From what I have read, I also believe that stimulants are pretty much the only really effective way to treat ADHD. I think that exercise and structure, and to a lesser extent diet, sleep, and stress management, can help, but the benefits are only minor.

That said, I would prefer not to take medications. If I can manage myself to a reasonable degree without them, I'd just as soon not use them. Why? Because the thought of being on some medication permanently is kind of daunting.

I was re-reading Driven to Distraction the other day, and saw another explanation that could apply to me. If we aren't taking medications, we can give ourselves that macho "got to buckle down" line. But if we take medications, we are admitting to ourselves that we are not in control; we have to admit that the problem stronger than us.

[speedo]

IQ measures more than learning. It also measures reasoning and logic, among other things.

The core of ADHD is the inability to control focus. The harder an ADDer tries to focus , the harder it gets to focus. I was unable to complete the paced auditory serrial addition test. I completely locked up and became rather stressed.

Because an ADDer is unable to focus, visualspatial memory is impaired. This means that we don't process what we see very fast. (at least, that is the way it is in my case).
It also means we don't place ourselves well in 3-d space. I never could, and still cant, hit a baseball , if I had to do it to save my life.

Impulsivity is a consequence and we are likely to say or do things that are socially inappropriate. To make matters worse, we often don't fully comprehend what we see and hear because we are so scattered. This means that we "get it wrong" a lot.

All of that means that learning, daily life functioning and social interraction are significantly impaired.

Now, for an ADDer, one thing that is very common is that our performance IQ is often much lower than our verbal IQ (15 points or so is not uncommon). In my case my performance IQ is 20 points lower than my verbal IQ. For "normal" people there is typically little diffetrence between the two.

For me, it means that I am borderline "retarded" for processing speed, visualspatial memory, and semantics. I am lucky that I have an above average IQ, because if I did have an IQ of 100, I would be functionally "mentally retarded" and probably unable to hold dwon a job at all. I assume that if my ADHD were to magically go away, my performance IQ would increase significantly.

I can't function without medications. I am sure there are people who can . I am sure there are people who think they can, but shoud not attempt it. There is no doubt that some people have a much milder case of ADHD than others, so some people often get by without medication of any kind.

I'm no doctor, BUT...I'd caution anyone who has ADHD against going off of medications. My reasoning is, that if the condition was strong enough to warrant taking meds in the first place, it probably warrants staying on them.

If a person has a mild case of ADHD and their life is not significantly impacted by it, than I would recommend they don't change a thing that they are doing.

The thing to consider is; By defiinition a diagnosis of ADHD implies that there is an impairment. No impairment, no disorder. Also, medicatoin is the most effective means of treating ADHD known to modern medicine. It is not just my opionion, it is a medical fact. With those facts in mind, chosing to go off of meds is chosing to live with the disorder rather than treat the condition in an attempt to reduce impairment.

ME

Originally Posted by Bob1951

There are a number of non-drug alternatives posts to manage ADHD on ADHD boards, some emphatically (albeit tacticly) say that their non-drug alternative is the answer. I don't doubt their sincerity but do doubt their accuracy. Simply put, I think such posts are sincerely wrong.

IQ tests measure intelligence potential. That is to say the higher your IQ, the easier it is for you to learn academia. I think IQ tests are powerful tools in the hands of skilled psychologists. IQ tests can help determine if a student's failure is lack of ability or some other problem.

What is the difference between and IQ of 100 and 80? The person with an IQ of 100 can learn easier than one with the 80. Nothing more or less.

Psychologists have determined (rightly so in my opinion) that an IQ of 70 or less disables a person from functioning within society. That being said, an IQ of 60 means said person has a hell of time learning basic skills such as adding, subtracting, and anything more than a very basic vocabulary.

Is ability to sustain focus any different? I think not. I took a TOVA test which uses an IQ like scale. That is, 100 means a population sample averages out at 100. 80% of the population comes in between 80 and 120 - just like an IQ test. An attention potential of 100 ranks at the 50 percentile just like scales used to measure other cognitive functions.

So what is your sustained attention potential? I'll tell you mine. On accuracy, I come in at slightly above average - 102. On response speed and variability of response speed, I come in at about 50 average.

The psychologist explained to me that response speed and variability of response speed were the parameters he was most interested in. Why? Because an adult trying his damnest to put in a good showing in a clinical setting will usually do well on accuracy. But the other parameters showed me falling apart over time in my desperate attempts to maintain focus.

At one point, I actually dropped below 40, that is, off the botton of the scale. You know what that makes me? A freaking sustainable attention RETART.

That is why nothing, I mean nothing, absolutely nothing other than SPEED works for me. Don't even think about arguing cause I've tried them all in vain attempt to avoid stimulant drugs. NOTHING ELSE WORKS.

Want to know what my response speed and variability of response speed is on stimulants? Glad you asked. Now I can brag. Response speed was off the chart, that is, at one point went above 140 - we are talking about the response speed of a 25 year old jet fighter pilot. Variability? Averaged out at 137. Damn, not off the scale, but not bad either.

Listen, boys and girls, if a non-drug therapy works for you, fantastic. Otherwise, stop shooting yourself in the foot, correction, stop blowing your leg off by trying to avoid the ONLY THING that will work for you. Your freaking prefrontal cortex is understimulated. Good grief, wake it and live - for the first time in most cases.

Just say 'yes' to drugs.

Bob

[Bob1951]

Speedo,

Good stuff, man. I learned something.

Umanchu,

My boyhood hero was John Glenn. The man is the epitome of balls and brains. He recently said, "There is more runway behind me than ahead of me." John's got his bird into space. I've been bumping down the runway for almost 55 years. Finally, my bird is airborne, afterburners blazing, in a dang near vertical climb out. I do not have control over my life without Adderall but I do with it.

My friend, you know I think a lot of you. Let me tell you what every geezer told me a zillion times. You blink and you are old. I use to fly airplanes and one of the scariest moments was when I was almost out of runway and my Cessna wasn't airborne and I was going to fast to break. It was either fly or die. With the stall warning horn screaming I pulled up and she flew. I am here because I did not run out of runway. Incidently, I had four guys on board all over 200 lbs and it was a hot summer day. Look up density altitude. I digress. Don't wait until it is too late.

Bob

[Scattered]

Originally Posted by Lunacie

Wow, do you work for a pharmaceutical company? I'm glad that whatever drug you're taking works for you. Many people struggle for years to find the correct drug and the correct dosage to get the maximum benefit with the fewest side effects. And then in a year or two many find that the benefit has decreased and the whole pony-and-cart-show starts all over again.

For me - at this point - with my allergic reactions to so many things including prescription drugs, it's just not worth the risk of a reaction and it's not worth dealing with the side effects.

Sometimes it's just a matter of dumb luck -- my first dose of Concerta turned out to be a good medicine for me at the correct dose to boot, so I had instant improvement.

My results on the TOVA were also impacted my my IQ, until the fourth quarter that is when I couldn't stop pushing that button -- it was quite an eye openner -- I'd never thought of myself as impulsive, but when I talked to my family they defiantely saw me that way!

Scattered

[Bob1951]

speedo,

I had to check first to be sure. I did. The difference between my verbal IQ and performance IQ is 28 points. I GOT YOU BEAT. I'm more ADHD than you are. nah, nah, da, nah, nah.

Please confirm: Dramatic performance IQ drop in relation to other IQ parameters is a ADHD tell tale sign.

Bob

Originally Posted by speedo

Now, for an ADDer, one thing that is very common is that our performance IQ is often much lower than our verbal IQ (15 points or so is not uncommon). In my case my performance IQ is 20 points lower than my verbal IQ. For "normal" people there is typically little diffetrence between the two.
ME

[Salvador]

Very good thread.

I have an above average IQ. Mine is 107.

The Caucasian male average is 100.

Some other ethnic groups have higher and lower averages.

I think the Japanese have an average of 106. People of Hispanic heritage, like me, generally tend to have lower average IQ's, but somehow I escaped that paradigm.

However, my on the job performance would indicate that I am boderline retarded.

I have burned through so many jobs. It has been a complete disaster. Thank God I have a smart wife that is capable of holding down a good paying job.

I'm finally holding steady at the job I currently have. The meds have definitetly contributed to my stability.

[Scattered]

Originally Posted by Bob1951

speedo,

I had to check first to be sure. I did. The difference between my verbal IQ and performance IQ is 28 points. I GOT YOU BEAT. I'm more ADHD than you are. nah, nah, da, nah, nah.

Please confirm: Dramatic performance IQ drop in relation to other IQ parameters is a ADHD tell tale sign.

Bob

The difference in my verbal IQ and performance IQ is 24 points so you edged me out too -- but not by much! Hallowell and Ratey say that inconsistency is the hallmark of ADHD. On my IQ test my highest area score was a perfect score -- my lowest was in the high functioning mentally retarded section. I reading that a difference of more than 10 points between verbal and performance was suspicious for ADD.

Scattered

[dormammau2008]

IQ 112DORM

[Hyperion]

25 point difference,

performance IQ 122
verbal IQ 147

however, there were multiple ceiling effects, mostly on the verbal part, but i think there might have been one or two in the performance part as well. the vci subtest index was 150, which was the ceiling for that index, plus ceilings in a few of the other indivdual subtests. so if the wais-iii didn't have a ceiling, the gap would probably be much higher. of course, i took the test before going on meds, so i'd be curious to see whether the meds might increase the performance score up closer to where the verbal score was.

[Hyperion]

oh, but in line with what sal was saying about ethnic groups, my score is actually in line with a little-known uirk in the bell curve for my particular ethnic group. while the overall averge percentage for scores over 140 is 4 per 1000, ours is roughly 25 per 1000. but i feel like using this as an excuse for people to do some research into the specifics of ethnicity and score, so you'll just have to guess.

but i'll give a hint...it's the only european ethnic group that's not actually native to europe.

[Uminchu]

Originally Posted by Bob1951

My friend, you know I think a lot of you. Let me tell you what every geezer told me a zillion times. You blink and you are old.

I would reply that in general, fulfillment is not found in our accomplishments but in the striving to attain them. IOW, making things easier does not necessarily make us happier.

But actually, I agree with what you say. It's just that I have developed a kind of coping mechanism -- as I suppose most of us who made it into adulthood undiagnosed have -- where I hold myself to a very strict standard of effort. Lack of ability doesn't bother me, but I must be convinced that I have given my best effort.

In this case, I feel that I have to convince myself that I have given my best effort to get by without medications, and only if I have convinced myself that I have done this and failed, will I try meds. I know it is not all that rational, but I know I would be second guessing myself for eternity if I didn't.

[WhiskeyJoe]

Originally Posted by Scattered

My results on the TOVA were also impacted my my IQ, until the fourth quarter that is when I couldn't stop pushing that button

I have that problem with the mouse on the computer. I just sit there clicking it when I'm reading an article or something. I don't really notice it until the mouse has moved out of the active window, so when I click again, something pops in front of what I was reading. Some days, I find myself clicking the right button and constantly having to close that little menu that comes up. I have to take my hand off the mouse to stop clicking.