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  #1  
Old 05-06-06, 12:23 AM
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So do we really know Einstein was ADHD? Could be a pop culture myth

Moderator note: some quotes may not "align" or appear above post. This original thread in it's entirety was split to form the thread "All ADD not Einstein at All" at initial thread starter request-(sorry Scuro)
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Doesn't sound like Einstein had a hyper bone in his body. As a boy he is described as being thoughtful and shy. Yes, he had some difficulties as a child, but does that automatically make him ADHD?

http://www.adhdrelief.com/famous.html
Quote:
-Einstein was four years old before he could speak.
-he was seven before he could read.
hmmm sounds more like a learning disability.


http://inventors.about.com/library/i...bleinstein.htm
Quote:
According to family legend he was a slow talker, pausing to consider what he would say. His sister remembered the concentration and perseverance with which he would build houses of cards.
Now that is not ADHD. ADHD is a fast talker who knocks down the other kids house of cards.


On the other hand, if you wanted to put a positive spin on ADHD, he becomes your poster boy. Einstein was the smartest man ever, and he had ADHD. In fact several pop culture books make reference to him often incuding pics. You have to "hook" the reader.

***the links were posted simply to foster discussion, the information provided may not be factual****
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Old 05-06-06, 12:35 AM
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Interesting...never thought to challenge the "fact" that Einstein had ADHD.
My son has severe ADHD though, and he's really shy. He talks so fast and I think that adds greatly to his shyness, most people can't understand him.
Why did they label Einstein with ADHD instead of just ADD? Seems like it would have been an easier label to back up...
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Old 05-06-06, 12:40 AM
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The Asbergers folks are claiming him too.

Quote:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/2988647.stm
Einstein and Newton 'had autism'

Albert Einstein and Isaac Newton may have suffered from a type of autism, according to experts. Albert Einstein Einstein was a notoriously confusing lecturer. Researchers at Cambridge and Oxford universities believe both scientists displayed signs of Asperger's Syndrome.

Many people with Asperger's are often regarded as being eccentric. They sometimes lack social skills, are obsessed with complex topics and can have problems communicating.

This latest research suggests that Einstein, who is credited with developing the theory of relativity, and Newton, who discovered the laws of gravity, had these traits to varying degrees.

According to the researchers, Einstein showed signs of Asperger's from a young age.

As a child, he was a loner and often repeated sentences obsessively until he was seven years old. He was also a notoriously confusing lecturer.

Later in life, the German-born scientist made intimate friends, had numerous affairs and spoke out on political issues.

'Passionate'

However, the researchers insist that he continued to show signs of having Asperger's.

"Passion, falling in love and standing up for justice are all perfectly compatible with Asperger's Syndrome," Professor Simon Baron-Cohen of Cambridge, one of those involved in the study, told New Scientist magazine.

"What most people with Asperger's Syndrome find difficult is casual chatting - they can't do small talk."

The researchers believe that Newton displayed classic signs of the condition.

He hardly spoke, was so-engrossed in his work that he often forgot to eat and was lukewarm or bad-tempered with the few friends he had.

If no one turned up to his lectures he gave them anyway talking to an empty room. At the age of 50, he had a nervous breakdown brought on by depression and paranoia.

However, others believe these traits can be attributed to both men's high intelligence.

'Socially inept'

"One can imagine geniuses who are socially inept and yet not remotely autistic," said Dr Glen Elliott, a psychiatrist at the University of California at San Francisco.

"Impatience with the intellectual slowness of others, narcissism and passion for one's mission in life might combine to make such individuals isolative and difficult."

He told the magazine that Einstein was regarded as having a good sense of humour - a trait not seen in people with severe Asperger's.

Professor Baron-Cohen said the findings suggested that people with the syndrome can excel if they find their niche in life.

"This condition can make people depressed or suicidal, so if we can find out how to make things easier for them, that's worthwhile."
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Old 05-06-06, 12:45 AM
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...and the BiPolar folks claim him too.

http://www.healthyplace.com/communit...upport_022.asp
Quote:
Did you know they think Einstein had it? Almost all great poets and philosophers had it too. Musicians and movie stars are disproportionately bipolar as well.
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Old 05-06-06, 01:11 AM
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Oh my lord! Poor Einstein! LOL
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Old 05-06-06, 02:35 AM
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However, others believe these traits can be attributed to both men's high intelligence.
And here's the rub, high intelligence will spin off numerous behavoral anomilies that you can conflate with any number of psychiatric diagnoses. Enough to wear an obsessive, compulsive down to catatonia.

Switch the lights, solarize the negative; you can then project a psychiatric diagosis and claim the results are high intelligence and extreme creativity.

A game of smoke and shadow.


BTW, I think de Vinci was the smartest. He was of course, a schitzo-affective, Adder, with Bi-polar, trans-polar, de-polarizing sun spotting tendancies. Oh,and don't forget OCD.
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Old 05-06-06, 02:53 AM
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And here's the rub, high intelligence will spin off numerous behavoral anomilies that you can conflate with any number of psychiatric diagnoses.
I agree. A long time ago I was talking to my best friend/evil twin about this. Like me, she's been diagnosed ADHD, although she's a lot more hyperactive than I, and like me, she displays some other Aspie-like tendencies, and our combined IQ is probably close to 300. Anyways, we were discussing her very intelligent but diagnosed schizophrenic ex-boyfriend, and it hit me that once you get past a certain point, intelligence wise, something is going to get miswired. We also thought it odd that our siblings were of average intelligence and also were not quite as psychiatrically interesting. We had a hypothesis, precocious high-schoolers that we were, that there was some sort of odd wiring thing going on...if our brains were wired a it differently in one direction, we'd be normal like our respective siblings, if they'd been wired a it more in the other direction, we'd be Rain Man.

Of course, having grown up and actually researched the subject, I now know that it's a lot more complicated than that, and I also know how little I actually know about the subject, if that makes sense.

Still, maybe M and I were on to something way back then.
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Old 05-06-06, 03:02 AM
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Oh, back to Einstein...

One of the things that made me think he might be ADD is his school history. Always failing easy subjects because they simply didn't interest him, never turning in work on time, always being called lazy, teachers didn't think he'd ever amount to anything. Despite being one of the most brilliant men in the world, he wound up working a ****ty job at the patent office. And while he slacked off at work and had slacked off before in scool, what does he do in his spare time, he studies physics because it interests him and can actually hold his attention. Once he's not being forced to study, he can do it for fun.

And what does he do in physics, he approaches the problem of the speed of light from a completely different perspective than anyone else had thought of. He didn't do it purely mathematically, like an autistic savant might, he did it by making a conceptual leap that was, essentially, so stupid that nobody had ever thought of it before: what if space and time weren't universal, but were different for each observer. Clearly it takes someone with ADD to appreciate that time is relative.
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Old 05-06-06, 07:31 AM
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hmmm sounds more like a learning disability.
Hmm sounds like me…. I didn’t talk until three but was in the third grade when the school concluded I could not read…. However I will admit I am not especially shy….I am pretty out going!


Scuro may have a point with the LD thing…

He read ahead that aint fair-lol!

Wekipedia

quote***
Einstein's abnormalities may support a post-mortem dyslexic diagnosis.
If the popular perception of neuroimaging of dyslexics is correct, it might mean that some of his abnormalities were more related to dyslexia than to genius.
A more active Broca's area is often evaluated in dyslexia: "At the same time, Broca's area in the front of the brain was bright with activity in these readers. Evidently, the dyslexic readers were not using the normal route to reading unknown words -- the phonologic and word-form circuitry in the back of the brain -- but instead were compensating by overactivating Broca's area, the vocalizing network in the front of the brain." [14]
Dyslexia, in addition to explaining physical brain abnormalities, might also explain Einstein's difficulties with speech, his reported visual processing, his ability "to think outside of the box", and his proclaimed difficulty with math, as dyslexics often have rouble with mathematical signs and equations which require many steps.
End Quote***
How ever having difficuly speaking may cause shyness not necessarily the abscense of ADD “think out sie of the box” where have I reads those words a million and one times before?


Quote:
Once he's not being forced to study, he can do it for fun.
No no ADD in that trait=hard headedness in an ADDer never (note sarcasm)

Hey an educational reform idea in the making… like teaching math using hop-scotch!


Quote:
He didn't do it purely mathematically, like an autistic savant might, he did it by making a conceptual leap that was, essentially, so stupid that nobody had ever thought of it before:
Or so different…….. not in line with the school of thought at his time…… does that equate stupid?…… Does the label genius vs. moron hinge on weather or not he was right or wrong? I am really asking as a curiosity how do we determine these things?



Quote:
what if space and time weren't universal, but were different for each observer. Clearly it takes someone with ADD to appreciate that time is relative.
IMHO, You hit that one straight on target!
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Old 05-06-06, 10:25 AM
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A more likely scenario is that he was an aspie. I recall reading somewhere that an analysis of his brain tissue showed that he had an abnormally high amount of white matter (connective cells) in his brain.

I know he had a number of learning difficulties, but his abilites to think about one thing for a very long time and to consider a large number of variables at the same time were remarkable. I bet he was one of those people who could recall 15 digit numbers easily.

ME


Quote:
Originally Posted by scuro
Doesn't sound like Einstein had a hyper bone in his body. As a boy he is described as being thoughtful and shy. Yes, he had some difficulties as a child, but does that automatically make him ADHD?

http://www.adhdrelief.com/famous.html

hmmm sounds more like a learning disability.


http://inventors.about.com/library/i...bleinstein.htm

Now that is not ADHD. ADHD is a fast talker who knocks down the other kids house of cards.


On the other hand, if you wanted to put a positive spin on ADHD, he becomes your poster boy. Einstein was the smartest man ever, and he had ADHD. In fact several pop culture books make reference to him often incuding pics. You have to "hook" the reader.

***the links were posted simply to foster discussion, the information provided may not be factual****
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Old 05-06-06, 10:48 AM
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Originally Posted by scuro
Quote:
According to family legend he was a slow talker, pausing to consider what he would say. His sister remembered the concentration and perseverance with which he would build houses of cards.
Now that is not ADHD. ADHD is a fast talker who knocks down the other kids house of cards.
Yes, I agree if we are speaking of ADHD... Though I don't think the inattentive would have the perseverance to stack cards (unless hyperfocused)... I know I couldn't.

Quote:
Originally Posted by scuro
The Asbergers folks are claiming him too.
I doubt he had AS, at least severely. There's a lot of overlap between those with a high IQ and those with AS.

http://www.cec.sped.org/AM/TemplateR...ContentID=4171
http://72.14.207.104/search?q=cache:...s&ct=clnk&cd=3 (* Google HTML Translation *)

That attempts to distinguish between the two. Just like ADHD, there's a wide range of impairment, though, and could have been "mildly" such.

I wouldn't doubt that he was LD. We have many intelligent people here, and I doubt this describes many of us. But then again, there is a high rate of co-morbidity between LD and ADHD, especially the inattentive type (which he seems to fit more of the description of). So I really wouldn't draw the conclusion yet that he isn't ADHD.
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Old 05-06-06, 11:51 AM
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(big grins…)

There is a direct relationship between Einstein and AD/HD. Whether it’s proper to say he had/was AD/HD isn’t for us to say, but the perception of a connection is based on an accurate intuition.

In McTavish’s terms, we would need to know if he was impaired, and that’s perfectly valid in this context. But much of what’s been mentioned here as a sign of possible impairment is misinterpreted, not consistent with Albert’s own statements.

What we do know about Einstein is that his work relied directly on the use of the logical property metalevel.

The perspective necessary to recognize the relationships at the core of his work require an awareness of relative metalevel, and their inclusion in the structure of his internal models that represent the basis of his theories.

Examples of his use of metalevels aren’t limited to the Special and General Theories. His early key contribution to quantum mechanics (the photoelectric effect) and understanding of classical particle mechanics (Brownian motion) betray the same unique perspective.

So does the (likely true) story of his early flash of genius in school. When the class was asked to add the numbers from 1 to 100 Albert thought for a moment while the other students began to add feverishly, then wrote a single number on the blank paper and put his pencil down.

It was correct, of course, and he later described the simple relationship and logic that led to the answer (which is why it’s believed the account is true).

There’s no evidence that Einstein was unhappy with his job as a patent clerk. In fact, it follows a pattern common to many great thinkers, purposeful isolation from the scientific establishment in order to pursue a particular line of thought without interference.

His later comments about that time show he was consciously seeking that separation. Bohr and Heisenberg’s isolated summer hikes through the fiords are another example; they developed most of the intuition of the counter-intuitive nature of the so-called Copenhagen model of quantum mechanics during that time.

It’s interesting to note that in both cases there was a cooperative effort, in which the process of individual communication one-on-one played a central role in the development of the key models. In Einstein’s case the one-on-one collaboration was structured, spread among a few friends and his first wife, so it’s significance is often missed. Nevertheless, Albert often mentioned it.

These are all examples of the principle that SB_UK has termed intimate convergence, in which two individuals’ models of some aspect of reality become synchronized so closely that they come to represent a dual view.

The perspective that results is logically much more solid than a solitary view, in that it avoids some of the uncertainty of the isolated individual perspective.

Another way to think of it is that two individuals is the smallest group possible, the ideal size for developing new common models significantly different than those already held by the group.

Either way, the effort requires an awareness of metalevels, and of course they will then naturally be incorporated in the intimately converged model.

Making the translation back to the larger group is an exercise in translation, finding a way to describe the models without requiring the use of metalevels. In most cases, this is the more significant and obvious effort, at least in terms of time spent.

There are similar connections to Asperger’s, autism, and some forms of dyslexia. In every case the core difference is related to apparent flaws in the logical models associated with some element of conscious being. In the case of Asperger’s and autism, the internal model of reality differs from the common model to a greater or lesser extent.

Such ‘flaws’ arise when the development of the models is interfered with for any reason, meaning there are likely organic causes of various types. But models incorporating metalevels may be have a significantly different representation of information independently of any organic problem.

Such models aren’t incorrect, but they are different enough to cause problems, even the failure to develop any social connection seen in deep autism. The key difference seems to be what part of the whole is ‘infected’ with the offending logical property.

Given that every externally recognizable artifact of being is generated by logical activity that depends entirely on the logical models represented in neural structures, it’s not hard to see how a small change in the form could have widely varying effects.

Pretty much just what we see in AD/HD, and in the sense that these other problems seem to related in some way. Considering that, it’s not too surprising that people like Einstein, Bohr and Heisenberg might choose to isolate themselves while they’re playing with ideas that require models that aren’t ‘normal’.

And how ADD is that? (grins…)
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Old 05-06-06, 12:05 PM
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Funny that we all take away from him what we want to see. be it meta, or aspie, or dyslexic.

Me? It is so obvious that he has got to be SCT, you have to be a fool not to see that!!

anyways....
I was searching to see what other disorders might "claim him" and came across this.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eduard_Einstein
Eduard Einstein (28 July 1910 – 25 October 1965) was the second son of physicist Albert Einstein and Mileva Marić. Eduard had a minimal relationship with his father, and had ambitions to be a freudian analyst. Einstein suffered from schizophrenia and was institutionalized. Mileva cared for him until she died in 1948. Eduard Einstein is considered by some to be one of the most well-known figures to have lived with schizophrenia. Eduard died in an asylum.

Albert Einstein did not also suffer from schizophrenia but is suspected of having Asperger's Syndrome, a condition that is sometimes confused with schizophrenia.
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Old 05-06-06, 12:08 PM
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Here’s one example of Einstein’s direct application of metalevels:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Albert Einstein, 1952 letter

What led me more or less directly to the special theory of relativity was the conviction that the electromotive force acting on a body in motion in a magnetic field was nothing but an electric field.
To see that relationship, and also to see that the obvious intuitive connection isn’t supported directly, requires a perspective from several metalevels up in the logical hierarchy, where the patterns representing the connections live.

It seems a no-brainer that the electromotive force should be exactly equivalent to the electric field, but until Einstein dealt with the problem it had never been proved so.

(There’s that pesky idea, ‘proof’, related to scientific theory again. Even Albert did it. What to do, what to do…)

The proof wasn’t trivial; as Einstein implies, it’s directly equivalent to the special theory, which isn’t generally associated with the effect of an electric field on a body in motion in the popular conception.

Clearly it is when you think about it; light is an electromagnetic phenomenon, its speed is central to the theory, and the equivalence of mass to energy isn’t far below the surface of that.

But it takes that view from above to make that jump, the specific ability to delineate patterns that span metalevels without getting lost in the shadows.
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Old 05-06-06, 04:20 PM
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what if..?

Quote:
To see that relationship, and also to see that the obvious intuitive connection isn’t supported directly, requires a perspective from several metalevels up in the logical hierarchy, where the patterns representing the connections live.
What if this doesn't represent anything connected to reality. What if...creativity is really just a byproduct of higher intelligence, greater consecutiveness of neurons/ brain structures, and nothing more? Can seeing more possibilities really just be the brain's ability to intercommunicate with itself? The studies of Einstein's brain point to this possibility.
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