ADD Forums - Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder Support and Information Resources Community  

Go Back   ADD Forums - Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder Support and Information Resources Community > ADULTS AND ADD/ADHD > Adults with ADD > General ADD Talk
Register Blogs FAQ Chat Members List Calendar Donate Gallery Arcade Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 09-04-07, 04:26 PM
chain's Avatar
chain chain is offline
ADDvanced Contributor
 

Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: People's Republic of Portland, Oregon
Posts: 643
Thanks: 0
Thanked 57 Times in 24 Posts
chain has disabled reputation
ADHD "Guilt Spiral"

Hi All,

I am wondering how many of you have the ADD "Guilt Spiral".

It goes something like this:

1. You do not do what is "expected of you" or... you think is expected of you
2. The person you feel expects something of you says something about it.
3. You feel guilty
4. The guilt hurts so you resent the person or their "expectation"
5. The resentment turns to anger
6. Anger turns into being stubborn
7. You meet even less of the expectation.
8. goto 1.


I have this to a small degree but seem to be able to untangle myself from it. I have noticed other ADDers (especially ADHDers) really have trouble with this. It creates a situation in which your partner, friends or family cannot approach you with their needs.

I feel it is a big killer of otherwise healthy relationships. Not to blame ALL on the ADDer... we often end up with people that manipulate our "guilt spiral" to further their own goals... thus making it worse when we do find healthy relationships.

For those of you who do this, how does a partner best communicate their needs in the relationship? How do you battle this issue in yourself?

ANY insights would be very helpful
Reply With Quote
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to chain For This Useful Post:
geekgirl397 (04-23-14), Jacksper (10-23-13), SpaceBaby (10-21-13)
  #2  
Old 09-04-07, 04:56 PM
SB_UK SB_UK is offline
 
 

Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: -
Posts: 20,150
Blog Entries: 20
Thanks: 6,099
Thanked 6,421 Times in 4,675 Posts
SB_UK has disabled reputation
Quote:
Originally Posted by chain
1. You do not do what is "expected of you" or... you think is expected of you
2. The person you feel expects something of you says something about it.
3. You feel guilty
4. The guilt hurts so you resent the person or their "expectation"
5. The resentment turns to anger
6. Anger turns into being stubborn
7. You meet even less of the expectation.
8. goto 1.
1-adders take longer, think deeper - when we arrive at a conclusion - we deliver a much more detailed solution.
Often the solution is delivered too late - or much deeper than was envisaged by the 'sponsor'
- problem is - is that - whichever way one looks at it -
our way is better - even if it's 'too' better.
2-
3-Generally upset - that the 'sponsor' has such a narrow view over the problem domain.
Guilt arises only - when made to feel guilty -
'due to the time which you have taken - all of your colleagues will never work again... and will die miserable deaths in Sub-Saharan penal colonies'
4-More - think that they're underqualified in their role as 'sponsor'
5-Depends on the relationship with 'sponsor'
6-No - always do the right thing; never stubborn 'for the sake' - that's just as bad.
Maybe only sticking with our beliefs - because subterfuge comes harder to us - I can't lie - mostly though because I know I'll forget lies.
~ADD~
quote:'I cannot tell a lie'
-<- generally considered all round good chap.
7-Am sweating now ... :-)
8- Where 1. is a new job (maybe???) - after doing the right thing and voicing one's concerns.

Cut corners in some jobs - and people die.
Not really good enough - vicarious liability applies
- if one just plain 'runs' - one is just as guity - no matter how one tries make feel that one isn't
- when people die from one's cowardice.
__________________
'IGNORE' FUNCTION BEING USED - 11 entries
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 09-04-07, 05:08 PM
chain's Avatar
chain chain is offline
ADDvanced Contributor
 

Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: People's Republic of Portland, Oregon
Posts: 643
Thanks: 0
Thanked 57 Times in 24 Posts
chain has disabled reputation
SB,


You described my thought process...
But I have found that it is not a typical one for many ADDers ;-).

I have the "guilt spiral" to a degree but it is followed up by a "do the right thing, tip rightside up" process. I am also "asperger's" which adds to the flavor of my ADD.

My partner who is purebread ADHD is quite different on this.
It may or may not be as extreme as I put it... but it does seem to occur



Oh... and I do believe that most ADDers do or can overcome this... but it is an interesting and frustrating chinese finger puzzle to be in when you have a partner with this going on.

Damned if I tell her I have a concern
Damned if I don't

Several ADD friends I know are really having trouble beating this spiral.
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
  #4  
Old 09-04-07, 05:39 PM
QueensU_girl QueensU_girl is offline
ADDvanced Forum ADDvocate
 

Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Toronto Ontario canada
Posts: 5,095
Blog Entries: 3
Thanks: 566
Thanked 1,015 Times in 638 Posts
QueensU_girl has a brilliant futureQueensU_girl has a brilliant futureQueensU_girl has a brilliant futureQueensU_girl has a brilliant futureQueensU_girl has a brilliant futureQueensU_girl has a brilliant futureQueensU_girl has a brilliant futureQueensU_girl has a brilliant futureQueensU_girl has a brilliant futureQueensU_girl has a brilliant futureQueensU_girl has a brilliant future
Is this Guilt or Shame?
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 09-04-07, 06:05 PM
chain's Avatar
chain chain is offline
ADDvanced Contributor
 

Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: People's Republic of Portland, Oregon
Posts: 643
Thanks: 0
Thanked 57 Times in 24 Posts
chain has disabled reputation
Maybe Shame is a better word for it. It does seem tinged with guilt though...

Here is what I found in wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shame


Shame vs. guilt

There is no standard distinction between shame and guilt. The cultural anthropologist Ruth Benedict describes shame as a violation of cultural or social values while feelings of guilt arise from violations of internal values. It is possible to feel ashamed of thought or behavior that no one knows about as well as feeling guilty about actions that gain the approval of others. However, in Facing Shame, therapists Fossum and Mason state "While guilt is a painful feeling of regret and responsibility for one's actions, shame is a painful feeling about oneself as a person." Shame is needed to establish limits, in childhood, since young children are unable to associate cause and effect by themselves. However, as children become better able to judge their own actions, guilt becomes the conscience former. Although, in general, guilt guides adult consciences, intrinsic shame is often present in adults too, as shaming is a form of religious, political, and/or legal control in cultures worldwide.




I would think that with people who are quite close... it would be guilt... with people who are more distant (people at work) it would be shame.

regardless of shame or "guilt"... I think the spiral is the same.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 09-05-07, 09:40 AM
meadd823's Avatar
meadd823 meadd823 is offline
Super Meowaderator
 

Join Date: May 2004
Location: address unknown
Posts: 20,843
Blog Entries: 38
Thanks: 6,810
Thanked 15,343 Times in 6,093 Posts
meadd823 has a reputation beyond reputemeadd823 has a reputation beyond reputemeadd823 has a reputation beyond reputemeadd823 has a reputation beyond reputemeadd823 has a reputation beyond reputemeadd823 has a reputation beyond reputemeadd823 has a reputation beyond reputemeadd823 has a reputation beyond reputemeadd823 has a reputation beyond reputemeadd823 has a reputation beyond reputemeadd823 has a reputation beyond repute
meadd823' closes her eyes and take a "stab" at this . . .

Sense I have stayed up too late and it is now earlymorning I might as well take a run at this before making coffee and chaecking out the weather .. . . .and teh depth of the swamp that has fromed in my back yard


It goes something like this:

1. You do not do what is "expected of you" or... you think is expected of you
2. The person you feel expects something of you says something about it.
3. You feel guilty
4. The guilt hurts so you resent the person or their "expectation"
5. The resentment turns to anger
6. Anger turns into being stubborn
7. You meet even less of the expectation.
8. goto 1.


Persoanlly I think your problem begins with #1. Deal with #1 and I think the rest will be taken care of also.

1 = Whose expectations?


I quit feeling guilty for not living up to the expectations others place upon me. It isn't my job to be who others think I should be. It isn't their place to determine what constitutes good enough unless I personally have chosen to put them in such a position in my life. The decision to allow some one to occupy this position can be retracted at any time I choose.

I have designed personal boundaries and feeling guilt is some thing I choose to feel during time I failed to live up to my own personal expectations.

Here is a real time example I am living right now as I type this out. I have stayed up too late if I lay down I will not get up at a reasonable time to work. It rained yesterday pulse we had a three day week end. I used to feel guilty and Gary used to help me feel guilty for staying up all night. . . . but I found instead of feeling guilty and just accepting this as the way it was because I was a bad person I found digging into my own reasoning was more productive. I first asked myself “why did I feel guilty for staying up” answer “Because I did not wake up at a reasonable hour and work got behind. My guilt was due the my failure to carry my load which is an expectation I place upon my self. IT is also an expectation I agreed to with Gary. I expect him to do his part and he expects the same from me”

I carry my load because I am an adult and that is what adults who want the freedom to make adult choices do they support them selves, So my guilt wasn't due to staying up at all but the resulting failure to wake up early enough to get my job done. Now when it gets to be a certain time and I know I will not get up in time I simply stay up and go straight to work = by the time Gary gets to moving I have a lot done. I will get tired early and some times I become dingie beginning in early afternoon. . . . . Gary has to bare the extra burden - again my cycle of guilt was beginning with step one You do not do what is "expected of you" or... you think is expected of you but my guilt was self placed so I began the cycle of questioning my own mind {often refer to as seeking insight} I felt guilty for failure to hold up my end by carrying out the jobs I have accepted as mine. One day it was like . . too late to change the staying up thing but I am an adult and I can change behaviors – if the shoe were on the other foot I would be annoyed at having to suffer the consequences of my spouses bad decision to stay up all night.

I rearranged my behaviors so that when I do this “all nighter thing” I do some of the morning chores that normally fall on Gary. I make coffee and feed animals print invoices {I am on the computer any way} the extra chores I do while waiting for the sun to come up enable Gary to get out to help me earlier thus most of the major work is done and Gary is gone on delivery when my dingies set in.

I push my self hard and refuse to "go ahead and take part of a day off" as Gary so often suggest. I knew I had to work when I chose to stay up and write crap instead of going to bed and that is my adult right but my adult responsibility for that freedom is carrying my load and I do.

I am considerate of the burden it places on Gary . . .my behavior displays my truer intention that our relationship isn’t all about me with no consideration of how my behavior effects him. I may not be able to become some one who doesn’t have problems sleeping or some one who actually like they way the medicine the doctor give me for this takes me feel but I will use what I do have to work with do rearrange things so my insomnia has as little of an adverse effect on Gary as humanly possible After all it is my insomnia and my responsibility to deal with it and now that I do I no longer have a reason to feel guilty. He can try to play the guilt thing but he hits a stone cold brick wall because he can't make me feel any thing including guilt.

Over time I quit lying about weather or not I slept because I am grown and I will practically kill myself to maintain my right to be an adult and stay up all night on the computer if that is how I choose to deal with my inability to sleep. I am not violating any of my promises to him. . . It is not other people's job to bare the burdens of my weird a** sleeping patterns nor is it their job bail me out when I make a bad decision to not take my medication like I am supposed to. It is not is it their place to make me feel guilty because I did not go to bed when they thought I should or I dealt with my inability to sleep in a manner other than what is “expected” by others. . Do I feel guilty hell no I don't because I know as surly as I sit here I am going to be kicking myself in the butt in about six hours . . . . and when I feel like crap and have to continue to push myself then I tell myself this is the consequences of a choice I made.

I hope my little real time example help to explain how I combat this guilty or shame cycle. I am not ashamed because I do not live up to others expectations. Expectation are a lot the guidelines I agree to when I joined here. I agreed to abide by these guideline when I joined. . no one forces me to come here and no one can "force" me adhered to the guidelines but they can end my account should I choose to violate the rules I agreed to. . . the guideline were an expectation we agree to when we made the choice to become members here and these expectations were present up front in an open manner. I remember reading the guideline before joining because the little sign said these thing will be expect of me one I become a member. . . . relationship with others including spouses should be handled in much the same manner.

My initial response to not wanting to take my medication that makes me sleep was to lie. I lied because I was not being mindful of my own boundaries. Boundaries are for us as well as for others. There are behaviors I have agree to with Gary and he with me. . . we know what the other person expect. Truthfulness was one of those behaviors. . . I was violating my own expectation and risking loosing more than a few nights sleep. I was risking “loosing face” with my self by lying. The choice not to lie is mine and as been most of my life . . being an honest person was one of the first things I decided to be when I was growing up and I am risking it why ??? because I didn’t want to deal with conflict. Well if my personhood isn’t worth a little conflict then I think dangerously little of my self. Especially when I consider medication bashing a perfectly good reason to engage in a rousting debate.



If my boundaries are not worthy on my own respect then how can I possibly expect others to respect them or me. . . I decided I was worth the conflict and the time or two it took to back Gary off my personal boundaries didn’t consume half the amount of energy that the guilt did when I lied about sleeping. The conflict about this matter is basically over with . When Gary wakes up to a cup of coffee he will already know I didn’t sleep. . . no I do not feel guilt nor can Gary make me feel guilty. I have already been through this enough to know I will be feeling like crap in about six to seven hours and it is no one else fault but mine. . . and that is okay I can handle that and not feel bad. . .insomnia is part of who I am a becoming { apparently }and hating medication that zonks me has always been me. . . so I might as well begin learning how to deal with it in a productive manner while praying I am not going to end up having to add a third diagnosis to my ADD dyslexia set. . . { another thread posted in the bipolar section already}

I am sorry this is long but I see the shame and guilt thing as a form of bondage that kept me sicker than ADHD itself ever could have Because of this shame guolt cycle thing I remained sick for a very long time. . . . .these aren't aren’t just relationship killers they eat away at a person from the inside out . . . . resentement and regret are personhood killers.

Okay coffee ands weather channel time Hope this mini-series of a post helps
__________________


Follow ADDForums on Twitter & Facebook

Last edited by meadd823; 09-05-07 at 09:58 AM..
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to meadd823 For This Useful Post:
SpaceBaby (10-21-13)
  #7  
Old 09-05-07, 10:57 AM
kilted_scotsman kilted_scotsman is offline
ADDvanced Forum ADDvocate
 

Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Scotland
Posts: 3,981
Thanks: 91
Thanked 5,967 Times in 2,469 Posts
kilted_scotsman has a reputation beyond reputekilted_scotsman has a reputation beyond reputekilted_scotsman has a reputation beyond reputekilted_scotsman has a reputation beyond reputekilted_scotsman has a reputation beyond reputekilted_scotsman has a reputation beyond reputekilted_scotsman has a reputation beyond reputekilted_scotsman has a reputation beyond reputekilted_scotsman has a reputation beyond reputekilted_scotsman has a reputation beyond reputekilted_scotsman has a reputation beyond repute
SB

You hit the nail on the head there.....particularly in a work scenario....

paraphrasing and inserting boss for sponsor

given a problem ......

think long, think deep, think holistically

solution is delivered is more comprehensive and wide ranging than was envisaged by the manager....

(Manager feels authority challenged as solution exposes weaknesses in management)

upset that the manager has such a narrow view over the problem domain.

explain problem domain and solution deeper and repetitively

(challenging managers authority further and annoying fellow workers)

think that the manager is underqualified in their role as manager

(lose respect for manager and show it impulsively)

lose job

result...pain guilt anger sorrow anxiety inadequacy, resentment, frustration and financial stress

repeat until "retirement"

kilt
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to kilted_scotsman For This Useful Post:
geekgirl397 (04-23-14)
  #8  
Old 09-05-07, 11:51 AM
busyhermit's Avatar
busyhermit busyhermit is offline
ADDvanced Forum Guru
 

Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: In my own little world
Posts: 1,008
Blog Entries: 2
Thanks: 63
Thanked 261 Times in 151 Posts
busyhermit is just really nicebusyhermit is just really nicebusyhermit is just really nicebusyhermit is just really nice
Quote:
Originally Posted by chain
Hi All,

I am wondering how many of you have the ADD "Guilt Spiral".

It goes something like this:

1. You do not do what is "expected of you" or... you think is expected of you
2. The person you feel expects something of you says something about it.
3. You feel guilty
4. The guilt hurts so you resent the person or their "expectation"
5. The resentment turns to anger
6. Anger turns into being stubborn
7. You meet even less of the expectation.
8. goto 1.
Yeah I relate, sometimes with my spouse, but I don't even need another person to play. I'm just chock full of expectations of myself, in every category, that I continually fail to meet. Guilty? always. Anger (internalized)? always. Around and around it goes. I agree that the solution must lie in stopping the cycle somewhere about #1 - I have hopes that with therapy and medication I will be able to do a better job of meeting reasonable expectations and eliminating the unreasonable ones.


Quote:
Originally Posted by chain
For those of you who do this, how does a partner best communicate their needs in the relationship?
Well, I can tell you what NOT to say, and that is "Why don't you just...(do this)" or "You really need to just...(do that)", or give a tutorial on dishwashing (for example) as if I don't know HOW to do it.... When my husband really needs something from me, all he has to do is ask - nicely, and with respect. And when I keep forgetting, all he needs to do is ask again, nicely and with respect. And without that tone that really says "Duh!" because that will bring on #4, 5, 6 and 7 with certainty.


Quote:
Originally Posted by meadd823
I am sorry this is long but I see the shame and guilt thing as a form of bondage that kept me sicker than ADHD itself ever could have Because of this shame guolt cycle thing I remained sick for a very long time. . . . .these aren't aren’t just relationship killers they eat away at a person from the inside out . . . . resentement and regret are personhood killers.
Beautifully and perfectly stated, meadd...if you found your way out of this same place, it gives me hope for myself. thank you.
__________________
ADHD, GAD-Social Anxiety with OC tendencies and Depression, Alcoholism 17 yrs sober.

"PARADISE... is exactly like where you are right now, only much... much... better..." - Laurie Anderson

I must've gotten here late because I didn't get the hand-out...
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 09-05-07, 12:35 PM
chain's Avatar
chain chain is offline
ADDvanced Contributor
 

Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: People's Republic of Portland, Oregon
Posts: 643
Thanks: 0
Thanked 57 Times in 24 Posts
chain has disabled reputation
Thanks for your input!

It is a tough situation for me at this point as I have pretty much ended this cycle at #1.... but a long long time ago.

My partner is undiagnosed and #1... well... I trip that one off starting the whole cycle even when I don't try.... in fact with her, it just trips off by itself. She simply assumes I have expectations that I don't.

I love her deeply and wish to help mitigate this whole thing. I feel that it is more difficult than the "ADD" itself (as Meadd aptly describes it). I actually consider my ADD to be a blessing as my brain is me
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 09-05-07, 05:24 PM
HighFunctioning's Avatar
HighFunctioning HighFunctioning is offline
Extradimensional Moderator
 

Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Not In Your Dimension
Posts: 3,866
Thanks: 339
Thanked 826 Times in 449 Posts
HighFunctioning has a brilliant futureHighFunctioning has a brilliant futureHighFunctioning has a brilliant futureHighFunctioning has a brilliant futureHighFunctioning has a brilliant futureHighFunctioning has a brilliant futureHighFunctioning has a brilliant futureHighFunctioning has a brilliant futureHighFunctioning has a brilliant futureHighFunctioning has a brilliant futureHighFunctioning has a brilliant future
Quote:
Originally Posted by chain
1. You do not do what is "expected of you" or... you think is expected of you
2. The person you feel expects something of you says something about it.
3. You feel guilty
4. The guilt hurts so you resent the person or their "expectation"
5. The resentment turns to anger
6. Anger turns into being stubborn
7. You meet even less of the expectation.
8. goto 1.
This does seem all to common, though I'm not sure if I'd always call the result "stubbornness".

> 1. You do not do what is "expected of you" or... you think is expected of you

This may further translate to:
1a. You are not meeting legitimate performance expectations or are having a real impact on something else.
-or-
1b. You may not actually be making someone happy for one reason or another, but the actual impact and value is questionable.

Whether or not the above translates to 1a or 1b may have other impacts on the outcome.

> 2. The person you feel expects something of you says something about it.

Probably more common in 1a....

> 3. You feel guilty

3a. You feel guilty
3b. You wish the other person would start thinking logically or start being more accepting of others and their differences.

> 4. The guilt hurts so you resent the person or their "expectation"

4a. You are resentful, but perhaps you will change (if it's something easily changeable).
4b. Why would you change when what is happening does not actually matter?

> 5. The resentment turns to anger

5a. and 5b. Yes, it does. Though I think 5b. carries more potential.

> 6. Anger turns into being stubborn
6a. You actually are stubborn.
6b. You are about as stubborn as you are when you don't believe that jumping off cliffs is always pain free. (I would tend to think the word rational would apply here instead).

> 7. You meet even less of the expectation.

7a. Quite probable. 7b. One would probably stay the same (unchanged).

> 8. goto 1.
8a. Goto 1, where 1 doesn't place the demand in the area that the previous 1. covered.
8b. Goto 1, as you simply might need to make some new friends or coworkers.

In a., a guilt spiral is a very good term. In b., perhaps not purely about guilt, and it probably can be worse, as with a., you have a good reason for feeling guilty, so you are decisive about it, but b. is full of indecision and constant questioning of one's perspective vs. others.
__________________
Disclaimer: none of the posts on this forum should be taken as medical advice. Optimally, always seek the opinion of multiple experienced professionals, note any discrepancies, and use your best judgment, as well as research, to determine what is true, untrue, and neither (opinion).
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 09-05-07, 05:45 PM
Crazy~Feet's Avatar
Crazy~Feet Crazy~Feet is offline
Guest
 

Join Date: May 2006
Location: Sunagakure
Posts: 20,958
Thanks: 0
Thanked 221 Times in 83 Posts
Crazy~Feet is a jewel in the roughCrazy~Feet is a jewel in the roughCrazy~Feet is a jewel in the rough
Quote:
I have the "guilt spiral" to a degree but it is followed up by a "do the right thing, tip rightside up" process. I am also "asperger's" which adds to the flavor of my ADD.
I also have "flavored" ADHD. I think that my flavor combination is a particularly tricksy one with respects to this question...eek!

I am so sick, have been for the last 4 days, and its kicking me quite viciously, indeed. I really want to dedicate a goodish amount of time to this and I am currently just lacking adequate energy to devote myself to a worthy reply. Please forgive me and give me a chance to recuperate and I promise I'll be back. My input might mean anything or nothing at all, but I sure would like to try!

We have not met before, but I believe we share a mutual friend, perhaps? I have heard of you and heard some very good things I might add. This is for you Chain:


Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 09-05-07, 06:06 PM
Paws13's Avatar
Paws13 Paws13 is offline
Forum Guru
 

Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Arizona
Posts: 942
Thanks: 7
Thanked 26 Times in 16 Posts
Paws13 has a spectacular aura aboutPaws13 has a spectacular aura about
Quote:
Originally Posted by chain
It goes something like this:

1. You do not do what is "expected of you" or... you think is expected of you
2. The person you feel expects something of you says something about it.
3. You feel guilty
4. The guilt hurts so you resent the person or their "expectation"
5. The resentment turns to anger
6. Anger turns into being stubborn
7. You meet even less of the expectation.
8. goto 1.
Henceforth my horrible relationships with past teachers.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 09-05-07, 10:32 PM
Michiko74's Avatar
Michiko74 Michiko74 is offline
ADDvanced Forum ADDvocate
 

Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Canada
Posts: 2,418
Thanks: 562
Thanked 1,620 Times in 802 Posts
Michiko74 has a reputation beyond reputeMichiko74 has a reputation beyond reputeMichiko74 has a reputation beyond reputeMichiko74 has a reputation beyond reputeMichiko74 has a reputation beyond reputeMichiko74 has a reputation beyond reputeMichiko74 has a reputation beyond reputeMichiko74 has a reputation beyond reputeMichiko74 has a reputation beyond reputeMichiko74 has a reputation beyond reputeMichiko74 has a reputation beyond repute
I think we've all gone through this at one time or another. At least I have.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 09-06-07, 03:56 AM
SB_UK SB_UK is offline
 
 

Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: -
Posts: 20,150
Blog Entries: 20
Thanks: 6,099
Thanked 6,421 Times in 4,675 Posts
SB_UK has disabled reputation
The 'guilt spiral' has a little similarity to your 'internal tape recorder' thread
- by that I mean that the ADD mind must work - and so will seize on potentially self-destructive means to gain its stimulation.

The notion of repetitive mantras 'internal tape recorder' and 'guilt' (here) - both in effect serving to make the individual *feel* bad - makes absolutely no sense from the perspective of the individual.

Who wants to feel bad?

Nobody - but then again - if we factor into the equation - the late evolutionary appearance of mind (in comparison with brain) - one might be left with the conclusion that the process which delivered mind - was brain supporting and not the organism or species-supportive - which then appeared (us) - as a consequence.

So - this point perhaps takes us a little further forwards.

Underusage of the mind - resulting in the brain snatching its desire to work - using means (yes - preferably for the benefit of the organism) (:-) us) - though in the absence of us placing inordinately abstract tasks for it to adsorp itself to -
it'll (brain) - take the easy way out - and engage the parts of mind (predominantly anger and fear) - which light up our brain like a Christmas tree.

I guess I'm saying - that when the ADDer is in a position where the {mind,brain} is underused and not capable of daydreaming itself into happiness (daydreaming representing multilinear abstract thought - thinking in images - high information content) -
- and where the human neighbourhood is benign (so excluding human interactions which rightly provoke a reaction) - that the ADDer will find his or her brain driving its mind into

Destruction of within
~or~
Destruction of without

Destruction of within is the self-destruction associated with anxiety and depression.
Destruction of without is anger projecting out towards others.

-*-

The idea of flavoured ADD is interesting (and how it impacts on our behaviour)

(from above)

(C)1.Aspergers-flavoured (Spock) (IQ) vs Emotionally backed logic (Kirk) (EQ)

(T)2.Dyslexia-flavoured (Dissolution of need for constrictive language in communication)

(C~F)3.Bipolar-flavoured (two states) - 3 conditions (BP I,II and cyclothymia) (similarity to ADD in the sense of 'highs' and 'lows')

4.ADHD, ADD-Inattentive
H-High-movement
I-Racing thoughts not feet (necessarily)

Why is it interesting?

Because in all cases - we're observing two diametrically opposed states -
in dyslexia also - though I'd need some help from the more knowledgeable here to describe the diametrically opposed state to dyslexia -
first thoughts
'perfect linear classical language constructors' - individuals perfectly unable
:-)
perfectly unable and therefore delusionally under the belief that words (classical {oral,written} language) bear a 1:1 relationship with meaning
(perhaps?)

-*-

The post above - then reduces down into the following observations.

A.Brain arises pre-mind

B.Brain wants to fire - and so delivers mind as part of its prime directive.

C.Mind is rather effective at driving thought or neuroTransmission - and so Brain decides to hand over more system resource

D.At this point we observe a reduction in our desire to eat (...etc...) - because areas including the olfactory centres (compare the human to rodent olfactory bulb :-) (difficult, as we don't have one) ) -
- because central areas have decreased in size to make space for the 'mind'-
or to describe this in another way -
- the rodent lives for food - whereas - a superficial study of the human brain will draw attention to our rather prominent, well-developed and striking
*cortex.*
Of course - also to mention that ADD has long been cited PFC-assocated.

E.The mind's success requires that it changes to r-e-a-l-ize its success - and at this point evolution occurs to the state which we describe as
ermmm...
ADD ?
(anybody heard of ADD ?)
:-)

F.However - the evolutionary rearrangement of change in structure of mind to complexity - will naturally be witnessed through our own eyes - since the evolutionary change has {mind,eyes,mind's eye} both before and after the change.
We are experiential ~witnesses~ of the change within and ~for~ ourselves.

G.From previously - the evolutionary process would be expected
<- ~noting~ part G. is described extensively elsewhere here - so if it can be assumed for this post that this part is acceptable -
:-)

G.From previously - the evolutionary process would be expected to involve three separate systems with each consisting of two opposite states
-> resulting in 1 state (evolutionary advancement) - which encompasses ALL of the advantages of each of the two opposite states in each of the 3 systems - and more on top.

So call these:

{{{4+/-}}] == {{{ {{{1+/-}}} + {{{2+/-}}} + {{{3+/-}}} }}} + X?*?

whereby 1,2,3,4 are:

Quote:
(C)1.Aspergers-flavoured (Spock) (IQ) vs Emotionally backed logic (Kirk) (EQ)

(T)2.Dyslexia-flavoured (Dissolution of need for constrictive language in communication)

(C~F)3.Bipolar-flavoured (two states) - 3 conditions (BP I,II and cyclothymia) (similarity to ADD in the sense of 'highs' and 'lows')

4.ADHD, ADD-Inattentive
H-High-movement
I-Racing thoughts not feet (necessarily)
~and~

X?*? is going to prove to relate to making
Quote:
constrictive language
better

-*-
Question-1
What is the point of language?
A:see section above on the energetically favourable process which allowed brain to instantiate mind.

Question-2
What's the single most significant problem with language?
A:if you know what I mean?

Question-3
How'd this problem be overcome -?-
thereby ensuring that the {mind,brain} - us, him, they, we and you - including one, I too
:-)
all of us are happy
A:Tele
port someone into your head
No - that's not it :-) ...
B:Tele
phone somebody and not put the phone done until they promise they understand
No ... no ... no ...- that's not it :-) ... (at all)
C:Tele
X?
hmmm... ... ...
Planet Telex ~s~ is the opening song off the (blimmin' marvellous) 1995 album - 'The Bends' - released by the English rock band - Radiohead.

Radiohead
hmmm... ... ...

Radiohead
hmmm... ... ... sy... ... ...
D:Tele
pathy

:-)
__________________
'IGNORE' FUNCTION BEING USED - 11 entries
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 09-06-07, 04:01 AM
meadd823's Avatar
meadd823 meadd823 is offline
Super Meowaderator
 

Join Date: May 2004
Location: address unknown
Posts: 20,843
Blog Entries: 38
Thanks: 6,810
Thanked 15,343 Times in 6,093 Posts
meadd823 has a reputation beyond reputemeadd823 has a reputation beyond reputemeadd823 has a reputation beyond reputemeadd823 has a reputation beyond reputemeadd823 has a reputation beyond reputemeadd823 has a reputation beyond reputemeadd823 has a reputation beyond reputemeadd823 has a reputation beyond reputemeadd823 has a reputation beyond reputemeadd823 has a reputation beyond reputemeadd823 has a reputation beyond repute
Quote:
My partner is undiagnosed and #1... well... I trip that one off starting the whole cycle even when I don't try.... in fact with her, it just trips off by itself. She simply assumes I have expectations that I don't.



Ahhh I got it back wards.

Cain one of the gifts and failings that often accompanies ADD is what is referred to is lack of boundary isolation. This is why we are able to readily make connections to things that most fail to see. It is also the reason I can't figure out weather or not I should file my dogs rabies vaccination under "D' for Dog "V" for vaccination or "R" for rabies.

This same tendency also can mean many ADDer have problems making personal boundaries for them selves and/ or recognizing other people's personal boundaries. If you have personal boundaries then you need to explain to her why boundaries are a good thing, help her define her own and making it kinown when you are applying your boundaries. Boundaries are not a prison any more than the fence sperating m u back yard from my neighbors is Boundaries are internal structure that allows us to see where others end and we begin.These boundaries are a must especially when in a relationship with another ADDer.

I have had to teach Gary this concept and it has been slow going but it has been well worth the effort.

I do my best to utilize certain situations as they arise. I try to avoid overly explosive ones to teach but they have come in handly as a means of enforcing mine. I will admit there are times especially in the beginning when he struggled

Gary insisted one time I could not get mad about {what ever}

My response "Man you got a list of crap I am allowed to get mad about. . . .and you intend upon enforcing compliance how? What make you think you have the ability to control my emotions?"

This was at the heart of several of Gary's inappropriate responses to my emotions but it was the conversation where I first became aware that Gary truly believed he was responsible for my emotions to the point where he falsely believed himself to be in charge of them . . . .

He would get upset when I had bouts of insomnia = he would get mad when I cried . . . had to verbally tell him he wasn't responsible for my emotions any more than he was responsible for my actions.

I used the bank robbing analogy . . .

One day when Gary was assuming persona responsibility for what I was feeling I said Gary what if I decide go out and rob a bank tomorrow who should go to jail me or you?"

The answer was " you obviously" . . ..

"Why not you?"

"Because I did not rob the bank you did"

"So my action of robbing a bank was out of your control and there fore not your responsibility would that be a correct statement? "

"Well yes why I should have to go to jail because you decide to rob a bank You robed it you should do the time not me. . .it's not like I forced you or made the decision for you. "

"Then why should you get mad because I am upset about how my daughter treated me? If I am responsible for my actions such as bank robbing then wouldn't this t also mean I am responsible for my own emotions? If you can not make me physically rob a bank then how can you make me feel happy sad or upset? "

Now when Gary tries to take on responsibility for my emotions my verbal cue is "I guess this means I can go rob that bank now"

He is now becoming capable of holding me when I cry and leaving me alone when I am unpleasantly angry because he understands these are my emotions. . . . .the unspoken expectations you say your female partner is expressing may be a sigh of enmeshment where she is having problem separating where you and your responsibility end and her and her responsibilities begin = it is not uncommon especially in the untreated ADD population


Cain I know of no other way except to teach these things using what ever approach you belief to be the best. Some one had to teach me. . . now I am passing along the favor. . . . I wish I had some cute wand I could wave but life simply does not work that way....

OKay my bed time medication is now taking effect and my post will only ramble incoherently until the medication renders me unconscious if I do not stop typing


Sorry I got it all backwards the first time - must be the dyslexia
__________________


Follow ADDForums on Twitter & Facebook
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
"No scientific basis" - Here's the Proof mctavish23 General ADD Talk 175 04-28-17 05:27 PM
adhd support groups in england gabriela United Kingdom 4 12-07-11 12:58 PM
My Article/Rant about Ritalin Critisism Sraldleif Ritalin 2 05-23-07 12:43 AM
Causes of ADHD speedo General ADD Talk 54 05-15-07 05:56 AM
Article-Is Psychosocial treatment of ADHD is still relevant?". scuro Science in the Media 100 09-28-06 10:11 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 07:08 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
(c) 2003 - 2015 ADD Forums