ADD and Depression Questions from Newbie

[augustwest58]

I'm a newbie with first time post. I'm submitting this to the ADD and depression forums and would be grateful for any comments.

50 years old, long time major depression since at least age 14. I had some success with Tofranil between 1985-90, but that seemed to quit working (or could not counter the effects of my wife losing a child in 7th month of pregnancy ?). Self admission for 30 day inpatient in 1990.

Tried several other meds, and finally found a winner with Nardil. I've been on Nardil for 17 years, 60 mg. (except for disastrous experiment with Effexor) and have found it to be a life-saver. I still have occasional severe depressive episodes, but these are always short duration, like 3-4 days max.

ISSUE - I realized long ago that in spite of Nardil doing a great job with depression, I still had a lot of "issues". About 10 years ago I read "Driven to Distraction" and realized that I scored extremely high on all of the ADD tests that I could find - Inattentive type. I mean extremely high.

However, my psych said that if I wasn't diagnosed as ADD as a child that you cannot develop adult - onset ADD. I was not diagnosed ADD as a child, but recall having some symptoms. Although I was a good student, I recall problems listening to verbal instructions, disorganized desk at school, very fidgety, etc.

Possible complicating factor (?) is the hypomania that can be a side effect of Nardil, but this isn't synonymous with ADD symptoms. My wife doesn't believe that I showed the ADD symptoms prior to 1990 (when I began nardil), but I'm not so sure about that.

I'm also feeling like cognitive impairment is getting worse and memory has gotten really bad.

Yesterday I had an extensive evaluation with competent psych. She's not convinced on the ADD, as my childhood symptoms (what I can recall) do not seem to have been severe. Again, I absolutely score through the roof on ADD tests.

The psych has recommended neuropsychological testing as the next step, which sounds like a good idea.

Any insight into my apparently mild ADD symptoms as a child compared with very strong ADD symptoms as an adult, possible relationship with major depression, or any other comments, would be greatly appreciated. Thank you

[ndnbutterfly]

Hi and welcome. I really can't give you any info, but wanted to welcome you anyway. I'm sure some of the other more informed people on here can and will definately help you. Good luck!

[Lady Lark]

Welcome to the forums.

[Crackerjack]

Originally Posted by augustwest58

However, my psych said that if I wasn't diagnosed as ADD as a child that you cannot develop adult - onset ADD.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.

Wow. Good one.

Originally Posted by augustwest58

Yesterday I had an extensive evaluation with competent psych. She's not convinced on the ADD, as my childhood symptoms (what I can recall) do not seem to have been severe. Again, I absolutely score through the roof on ADD tests.

Is there anyone where these docs are at who've actually cracked open a book on ADD?

ADD ranges in severity, not to mention there's different types. On top of that, the severity can change depending on the situation.

Your situation kinda remind me of what I went through as a kid. (I'm 36 now)

Using myself as an example, I did very well in school. Aside from a rather severe issue with mathematics and chemistry (I couldn't remember formulas to save my life), you couldn't tell I had any issues - and neither did I, except for the numbers.

I had a messy desk/room but what kid/teen doesn't? I had trouble paying attention in class a bunch of the time, but my teachers mostly just yakked and had people raise their hands to answer questions so I was under the radar there. Plus what kid likes to sit at their desk and listen to a teacher drone on? A bunch of my classmates were passing notes or doodling.

I got tested when I was in 3rd grade, but it didn't pick up anything aside from the math problem, and the evaluator didn't think it was that severe, I guess. I scored as a 7th grader when it came to reading level/comprehension.

I had followup testing done when I was in college and was diagnosed with dyscalcula (like dyslexia but with numbers), and the evaluator picked up that I had auditory processing issues, but I didn't get an actual ADD diagnosis till I was 33. Looking back, I had it all along.

I didn't come across as severe either, until I got out of school and hit the "real world". I'm fine in a structured environment like school, but get me in an unstructured situation and that's where the trouble starts.

When did the issues you have start getting severe for you?

Edit: Another thing I just remembered was I'd repeat myself a lot when I was in jr high and in high school. Don't remember that issue in college, but it's something I rarely do now unless I'm very tired.

[stef]

dyscalcula ? there's a name for this? (what WON'T I learn here...)
I recently did 2 orders from catalogues (I filled them out and wrote checks - internet shopping is just plain dangerous! I received: wrong shaped tablecloth; wrong color sweater, and a check for about $10 because I overpaid. Hmmm ....
i had many similar experiences in school.

[johnny s.]

did they even have add-inattentive when we were kids? (I'm 37)

I don't think they really knew much about it back then. maybe that's why you weren't diagnosed.

maybe since you weren't hyper they didn't even consider it.

[Crackerjack]

Originally Posted by stef

dyscalcula ? there's a name for this? (what WON'T I learn here...)

http://www.dyscalculia.org/

Used to drive me up the wall in college because few calculus classes would let students use calculators for tests, so I'd just walk out of the room as soon as they said no calculators were allowed on the first day.

I don't see what the big deal was about the no calculator rule because I use one whenever needed. I used to have one of those calculator watches too, which I thought was a godsend.

I also used to have to count on my fingers (still do sometimes) and my 7th grade math teacher got incredibly snarky because I did that.

[msb1210]

hey I'm new here and wanted to welcome you as well. I'd do some looking into correlations to ADD and Bipolar Disorder. I'm no doctor but from what your explaining regarding your depression episodes and hypomania and ADD it might be worth your while. Regardless its always good to cross something off the list. Good luck to you.

[stef]

Thanks again & look what I found: THIS IS ME. http://www.as.wvu.edu/~scidis/dyscalcula.html
-----------

SYMPTOMS

• Many students with disabilities have histories of academic failure that contribute to the development of learned helplessness in mathematics. It is important that mathematics instructors recognize the symptoms of dyscalculia and take the necessary measures to help students that are affected. Some of the symptoms are:
• Students might have spatial problems and difficulty aligning numbers into proper columns.
• Have trouble with sequence, including left/right orientation. They will read numbers out of sequence and sometimes do operations backwards. They also become confused on the sequences of past or future events
• Students typically have problems with mathematics concepts in word problems, confuse similar numbers (e.g., 7 and 9; 3 and 8), and have difficulty using a calculator.
• It is common for students with dyscalculia to have normal or accelerated language acquisition: verbal, reading, writing, and good visual memory for the printed word. They are typically good in the areas of science (until a level requiring higher mathematics skills is reached), geometry (figures with logic not formulas), and creative arts.
• Students have difficulty with the abstract concepts of time and direction (e.g. inability to recall schedules, and unable to keep track of time). They may be chronically late.
• Mistaken recollection of names. Poor name/face retrieval. Substitute names beginning with same letter.
• Students have inconsistent results in addition, subtraction, multiplication and division. Students have poor mental mathematics ability. They are poor with money and credit and cannot do financial planning or budgeting (e.g. balancing a checkbook). Short term, not long term financial thinking. May have fear of money and cash transactions. May be unable to mentally figure change due back, the amounts to pay for tips, taxes, etc
• When writing, reading and recalling numbers, these common mistakes are made: number additions, substitutions, transpositions, omissions, and reversals.
• Inability to grasp and remember mathematics concepts, rules formulas, sequence (order of operations), and basic addition, subtraction, multiplication and division facts. Poor long-term memory (retention & retrieval) of concept mastery. Students understand material as they are being shown it, but when they must retrieve the information they become confused and are unable to do so. They may be able to perform mathematics operations one day, but draw a blank the next. May be able to do book work but can fails all tests and quizzes.
• May be unable to comprehend or "picture" mechanical processes. Lack "big picture/ whole picture" thinking. Poor ability to "visualize or picture" the location of the numbers on the face of a clock, the geographical locations of states, countries, oceans, streets, etc.
• Poor memory for the "layout" of things. Gets lost or disoriented easily. May have a poor sense of direction, loose things often, and seem absent minded. May have difficulty grasping concepts of formal music education. Difficulty sight-reading music, learning fingering to play an instrument, etc.
• May have poor athletic coordination, difficulty keeping up with rapidly changing physical directions like in aerobic, dance, and exercise classes. Difficulty remembering dance step sequences rules for playing sports.
• Difficulty keeping score during games, or difficulty remembering how to keep score in games, like bowling, etc. Often looses track of whose turn it is during games, like cards and board games. Limited strategic planning ability for games, like chess.

[augustwest58]

[quote=Crackerjack;659265]HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.

Wow. Good one.



Is there anyone where these docs are at who've actually cracked open a book on ADD?

ADD ranges in severity, not to mention there's different types. On top of that, the severity can change depending on the situation.
____________________

Thank you for the detailed response. You laugh when I quote the psych as having said that you cannot have adult-onset ADD unless you were ADD as a child (whether ADD was diagnosed or not). But isn't that still the official thinking as far as the DSM goes ?

I really can't recall any of these symptoms prior to 1991 when I first started taking
Nardil. Maybe I was oblivious to ADD symptoms due to killer depression. Maybe the Nardil, which does cause hypomania, is causing ADD symptoms? My former psych also thought I may have been Bipolar (a less extreme type of bipoloar, not sure the term).

Anyway, at suggestion of my psych, I'm now scheduled for neuropsychological testing in mid-December. Not sure what they can tell from that.

Thanks again.

[xraylady33]

Welcome, enjoy your stay.

[Crackerjack]

Originally Posted by augustwest58

Thank you for the detailed response. You laugh when I quote the psych as having said that you cannot have adult-onset ADD unless you were ADD as a child (whether ADD was diagnosed or not). But isn't that still the official thinking as far as the DSM goes ?

I have no idea what the DMS says about this, but that line of thinking doesn't hold any water for me.

There's plenty of adults who've come on here and talk about how they've suspected they or their spouse have ADD because their kids were just diagnosed.

Often times those adults weren't tested for a number of reasons, adding to that there's a lot more research available on the subject today than 10 years ago and ADD tests can be more complex as well. (Like Johnny S. said)

Originally Posted by augustwest58

I really can't recall any of these symptoms prior to 1991 when I first started taking Nardil. Maybe I was oblivious to ADD symptoms due to killer depression. Maybe the Nardil, which does cause hypomania, is causing ADD symptoms? My former psych also thought I may have been Bipolar (a less extreme type of bipoloar, not sure the term).

I'd suggest talking to anyone you knew before 1991 if you can and see how you were acting then. I'm not familiar with the drugs you've mentioned so I can't say anything about the side effects. It could be possible but you're better off checking with someone who's way more authoritative on it that I am.

[semfi]

welcome!

[Song of Mercy]

Welcome!

[Bluerose]