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Old 02-28-09, 05:26 PM
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finger and Hand 'cramps' / 'locks' / 'randomness' (open discussion on muscle issues)

Hey, I've had this problem with my hands lately, where they sort of freeze up...

Fist insident:
I first noticed it when I was in high school (on Adderall XR) and working out in gym class. I was lifting up something like... maybe 80+ pounds or something, it was a decent load. The machine was like.. where you sit down, and you reach down by your sides and pull up two handle bars. This machine has one I think (on the right side, the lower most handle bars by the seat.)

Anyway, after I got done with all the reps, I was like "thank god that's over with, I can't believe gym is a required class in this high school!". I got up, and my hands (the fingers) WOULD NOT RESPOND! I couldn't get them to move, they were just locked in place, in sort of a half grip position. I was really worried, and wierded out at the time, and was trying to explain it to my lifting partner, and stuff.

I showed the gym teacher and he was like "drink more water, it's a XXX" idk remember this was a long time ago...

anyway... It happened again, fairly in frequently I belive for the next.. 3 years.


Bit of history:
now then... I'm a guitarist, and I play the guitar very often because I just don't do other things. I never felt that my fingers were good at the guitar, it always felt uncomfortable and awkward. I used to play the piano and feel passionately about music so I kept at it, and tried to come up with ways to make things better...

A year ago I got one of those gyro-balls because 1) they're fun, and 2) I thought that they could help develop the muscles in my hand which would allow me to play the guitar with out awkwardness.

I held the gyro-thing with my finger tips and used it every four days (that was fatiguing on my fingers).

I also bought a "grip master" which I think may have put undue strain on myself, because I think things got MUCH worse sometime after the use of these things.


Currently:
Now-a-days, my fingers cramp when constantly, whenever I hold something heavy with those muscles, or even hold down a chord for more than 20 seconds.


My strategy
Well, to be honest, I need some advice from you guys. My doctor had NOTHING to offer me but IBprofin (although on an unrelated issue she pointed out that coldness can cause cramping so they redeem themselves; I didn't know that, plus this doc is kind).

Through searching the web I found that Magnesium, Calcium and Potasium are all related to muscle cramping. Vitamin E too, say some!
http://www.bodyandfitness.com/Inform...h/legcramp.htm

They say that you should take no more than 300~420mg of magnesium per day (girl~guy) and that you should try and get 2x as much calcium as Mg. What I don't get is how do you calculate the amount of magnesium you're actually absorbing?

Good tips are at this website like "eat green leafy foods, and maybe kelp for thyroid problems, etc."
http://www.health4youonline.com/nutr...cle_cramps.htm


Thanks to... (the guy with the picture of the cat looking anxiously down at something as his avatar) I know that Amphetamine changes the concentrations of Magnesium in the body. I think the study determined that there was more in the blood.. and I kinda figure maybe that means there is less in the muscles? or something along those lines. anyway.. there's a neurological problem with taking too much Mg suppliments (but not from getting it naturally, so there must be a safe supplimental form of it out there I would imagine).

I couldn't fully understand the wording of the study, maybe, and I can't find it, and I have no time to do school work and g2g.

Oh yeah, I was using MgO (it's mostly just a stool loosener I'm finding though, useless as a Mg suppliment) and I think maybe, just maybe, it's helping a bit. I don't really know though, it's definately not helping enought.
.


I made a random list of suppliment things, but some look dangerous and unhealthy to me, and well, in general I haven't had time to try them all out. I have MagnesiumTaurate coming in the mail, which is the first thing I'm going to try (hoping that my magnesium oxide is just too useless to help me)....

So hears a list of things that I haven't tried that relate to muscle cramping in general:

Bilberry
black cohosh
Ginkgo
Mustard
CoQ10
Vitamin E
Vinegaracetic acid --> acetylcholine

... there's a substance that facilitates magnesium entry into our tissues.. I'm not sure what it is unfortunatly, buy I hypothesize that it could help us.. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8453060 (yikes scary, I hope that's not what I was thinking of.)

(I also had hand pain which turning out to be caused by gaglion cysts which you can google / provide cures to, althought that's not something I'm thinking about now, now that I know the cause and can avoid aggitating things.)
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Old 02-28-09, 06:24 PM
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Re: finger and Hand 'cramps' / 'locks' / 'randomness' (open discussion on muscle issu

What did the orthopedic surgeon suggest?
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Old 02-28-09, 06:40 PM
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Re: finger and Hand 'cramps' / 'locks' / 'randomness' (open discussion on muscle issu

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Originally Posted by Imnapl View Post
What did the orthopedic surgeon suggest?
Haven't seen one, but good point, lol, I should find out what one of those thinks about all this.
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Old 03-01-09, 12:26 AM
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Re: finger and Hand 'cramps' / 'locks' / 'randomness' (open discussion on muscle issu

I've had the hand lock-up thing happen to me, just once. It felt really numb like my whole hand fell asleep. It actually lasted a while, probably 15 minutes or so. Really, there are tons of things I could think of that it could be, but in my opinion, It sounds like you need to see a doctor.

I don't think it is even anything that has to do with the Adderall, from what it looks like, maybe you have damaged nerves or other hand/finger issues from playing guitar and piano. If it was really bothering me, I'd go see a specialist (not sure if they have some sort of special hand or muscle doctor??).

I get cramps in my jaw, and urges to chew stuff, not sure if that is related.........
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Old 03-01-09, 12:58 AM
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Re: finger and Hand 'cramps' / 'locks' / 'randomness' (open discussion on muscle issu

I know someone who played a lot of guitar that wound up with curled fingers. I don't remember what it was called, but it had to be corrected by surgery.
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Old 03-01-09, 03:01 AM
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Re: finger and Hand 'cramps' / 'locks' / 'randomness' (open discussion on muscle issu

Wow, it sounds like you did your research on it though. So you are saying you have not as much magnesium as you should, you think. In terms of the calcium and potassium, I have kidney stones so I make sure I have a TON of that in my diet. I go through a gallon of milk * by myself* in two days.

I suppose circulation problems could be due to many things, but honestly, I have found that guitar playing and violin playing is not nearly as fast as I used to be for me, and I play VERY often. I also noticed typing is harder, my hands will be cold for no real reason (especially my left, and I'm a lefty). But I am not sure if it is the amphetamine. I don't drink enough water probably, sure, and I am a cold-blooded person also.

So, being curious myself I found this article:
"In disease and stress states, more magnesium is needed. If a person is using diuretics (water pills), he should make sure his magnesium intake is adequate. Potassium supplementation is usually needed also. The higher the protein you consume the more magnesium is needed. When large amounts of calcium are consumed, you need more magnesium."

Ok well. I'm very stressed because I am in graduate school. I definitely do not drink much water. However, I'm a vegetarian. I don't like bananas, so maybe I need more potassium, too. I do drink a ton of calcium. I may have a magnesium deficiency.

"Recent studies have shown that magnesium deficiency is found in 25 percent of eating disorders, such as obesity and anorexia nervosa. Symptoms such as weakness, leg cramps, anxiety and confusion will often clear up with magnesium therapy. A magnesium deficiency in humans can occur in patients with diabetes, chronic diarrhea or vomiting.

Heart palpitations, "flutters" or racing heart, otherwise called arrhythmias; usually clear up quite dramatically on 500 milligrams of magnesium citrate (or aspartate).

Be careful with the magnesium supplements tho... because after reading other posts on magnesium and adderall, it seems like it made other people's medication effects last too long... also from another post:
"I personally believe that Magnesium is a useful aid when taking Adderall, and do indeed use it as a supplement myself. However, Magnesium Oxide (the form PeterMac is advocating) is actually the LEAST absorbed form of Magnesium. Better choices include Magnesium Citrate, Hydroxide (stated above), or glycinate."

It seems like to me I would try it, because it seems like there are a lot of benefits especially in case you have other signs of deficiency... . Just be careful taking too much like you said, and also drink a lot of water.
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Old 03-01-09, 03:06 AM
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Re: finger and Hand 'cramps' / 'locks' / 'randomness' (open discussion on muscle issu

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aald4x4 View Post
I've had the hand lock-up thing happen to me, just once. It felt really numb like my whole hand fell asleep. It actually lasted a while, probably 15 minutes or so. Really, there are tons of things I could think of that it could be, but in my opinion, It sounds like you need to see a doctor.

I don't think it is even anything that has to do with the Adderall, from what it looks like, maybe you have damaged nerves or other hand/finger issues from playing guitar and piano. If it was really bothering me, I'd go see a specialist (not sure if they have some sort of special hand or muscle doctor??).

I get cramps in my jaw, and urges to chew stuff, not sure if that is related.........
I play guitar and violin and as long as you do it right, you shouldn't have too many hand or finger issues. You may get joint issues or sore skin, but not circulation issues. In fact your hand circulation should be quite good.

I would see a specialist also, they will know if adderall can contribute to circulation issues, or hand issues overall. I believe they have circulation specialists, of some kind.

I get cramps in my jaw also, but that's a side effect of mine with stims, jaw clenching from time to time. So who knows, maybe.
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Old 03-01-09, 11:27 AM
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Re: finger and Hand 'cramps' / 'locks' / 'randomness' (open discussion on muscle issu

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aald4x4 View Post
...maybe you have damaged nerves or other hand/finger issues from...
Oh, I think have another related symptom now that you mention it. Like, when I used to play soccer as a kid; and I was on stims; and it was cold.. When I would start running from stand-still (and thus swings/move my arms) I would occationally feel something weird pulling in my left arm. I could never tell what it was =/ is that a nerve shrinking from the cold?

Related: Don't try this hand stretch!! but.. I did this yoga hand stretch where you put your hand against the wall, and then turn your neck away.. as you turn your neck away you feel a similar pulling/ stretching (which is disguisting imo). I did very little of this stretch, but later that day I had the worst time trying to play the guitar, like my hand was extra sensative.. so maybe it's more nerve related? I still haven't proven to myself that the magnesium is helping it. Does anyone know the name of the nerve that might be responsable? Has anyone else noticed this? (note: i'm not totally sure it's related to the cramping).
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Old 03-02-09, 03:10 PM
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Re: finger and Hand 'cramps' / 'locks' / 'randomness' (open discussion on muscle issu

Oh, I should point out that Mg interacts with Adderall absorption, potentiating it. This can be dangerous, but it's fine if you take the Mg at night (with out adderall). Adderall tolerence (I hear) can be mitigated by Mg supplimentation.
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Old 03-02-09, 04:02 PM
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Re: finger and Hand 'cramps' / 'locks' / 'randomness' (open discussion on muscle issu

I just found out Mg Citrate can be problematic for kidneys, just a heads up
http://www.socialanxietysupport.com/...98/index2.html
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Old 03-04-09, 10:40 PM
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Re: finger and Hand 'cramps' / 'locks' / 'randomness' (open discussion on muscle issu

I got the Magnesium Taurate a couple days ago, and I'm taking two a day (250mg elemental Magnesium per day). Taking one cap has the ability to make me very sleepy inspite of taking 20mg of Adderall XR ~9 hours ago (20mg is a modest dosage, but sleepieness with it is unprecedented, that early, for that long).

My hands didn't lock today from playing for ~40 mins, although some days are good days. I'm having random carple tunnel symptoms lately (due to discontinuation of fish oil) so I've got to limit my playing ...mostly typing though, lol.
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Old 07-20-09, 05:55 PM
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Re: finger and Hand 'cramps' / 'locks' / 'randomness' (open discussion on muscle issu

i have found out why my muscles do the same things your does and it is a genetic condition that tends to run in french canadian families.. it is called hypokalcemia partial paralysis. more specifically, in my case potassium ion channelopathy, named andersen tawil syndrome...it is caused by the interaction of insulin with the potassium in the musle cells.. google ion channeopathies first then hypo and hyper kalcemia partial paralysis and then andersen tawil syndrome... also google rare type of attention deficit disorder caused by potassium ion channelopathy.. and also google dr michael segal md phd nuerology..you may find your answers there too... i use potassium supplements daily along with fish oil omega threes (3 tabs) and calcium tabs as well as zinc, magnesium, calcium tabs too with vit d and superB complex and i am getting better every day with results immediately when i added potassium to the other things on my list... by the way i am of french canadian ancestry too...

katts

Last edited by kattsqueen; 07-20-09 at 05:59 PM.. Reason: my punctuation is atrocious
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Old 07-22-09, 03:02 AM
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Re: finger and Hand 'cramps' / 'locks' / 'randomness' (open discussion on muscle issu

I have the exact same thing happen. It feels weird, then becomes a bit painful. It's worse during the "crash" for me, though.

But it's just something I deal with. Adderall also gives me random muscle twitches and whatnot, but nothing major.
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Old 07-23-09, 03:50 PM
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Re: finger and Hand 'cramps' / 'locks' / 'randomness' (open discussion on muscle issu

I canīt believe how many things seem to be related to ADD.

I have similar problems and had them for years.

Muscle cramps in my hands, especially in my hands, had to give up on playing the piano, big trouble writing. I have been waking up with pain in my hands for years due to cramps during the night. I wake up with my hands in a weird, flexed position quite often.

It seemed to get worse before I started treating my ADD, and then it also spread more to other muscles.

Now to the point.

Look up DYSTONIA on the internet.

There are focal forms, this sounds like it could be your case. It happens more often to musicians.

I tried some different things that seem to help a bit:

Propranolol (5-15 mg), seems dose related, just have to try different doses
Clonidine
Paralgin Forte also seems to help a bit.
Diazepam

Actually, Strattera helped my muscle cramps in the beginning, but not too much anymore. Noradrenaline affects muscle tension somehow, thatīs perhaps the link.
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Old 07-23-09, 08:32 PM
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Re: finger and Hand 'cramps' / 'locks' / 'randomness' (open discussion on muscle issu

!!!! This happens to me every couple of weeks!! I had no ideas what is was. Thanks for the info!
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