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  #1  
Old 05-01-09, 04:37 PM
burning8timer burning8timer is offline
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Adderall and dopamine depletion

Can adderal alone cause dopamine depletion?

Would this mean that NOT on a stimulant or on adderall you would find no pleasure in things?
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Old 05-01-09, 09:17 PM
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Re: Adderall and dopamine depletion

The following is plagiarized from the Wikipedia article on Dopamine dysregulation syndrome: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dopamin...ation_syndrome

"In accordance with the role of dopamine in reward processing, addictive drugs stimulate dopamine release.[3] Although the exact mechanism has yet to be elucidated; the role of dopamine in the reward system and addiction has been proposed as the origin of DDS (Dopamine dysregulation syndrome).[3] Models of addiction have been used to explain how dopamine replacement therapy produces DDS.[4] One of this models of addiction proposes that over the usage course of a drug there is an habituation to the rewarding that it produces at the initial stages. This habituation is thought to be dopamine mediated. With a long-time administration of L-dopa the reward system gets used to it and needs higher quantities. As the user increases its drug intake there is a destruction of dopaminergic receptors in the striatum which acts in addition to an impairment in goal-direction mental functions to produce an enhancement of sensitization to dopamine therapy. The behavioral and mood symptoms of the syndrome are produced by the dopamine overdose.

The most common symptom is craving for dopaminergic medication. However other behavioral symptoms can appear independently of craving or co-occur with it.[4] Craving is an intense impulse of the subject to obtain medication even in the absence of symptoms that indicate its intake.[4] To fulfill this need the person will self-administer extra doses. When self administration is not possible aggressive outbursts or the use of strategies such as symptom simulation or bribery to access additional medication can also appear.[4]

Hypomania, manifesting with feelings of euphoria, omnipotence, or grandiosity, are prone to appear in those moments when medication effects are maximum; while dysphoria, characterized by sadness, psychomotor slowing, fatigue or apathy; are typical with DRT withdrawal.[4] Different impulse control disorders have been described including gambling, compulsive shopping, eating disorders and hypersexuality.[4] Behavioral disturbances; most commonly aggressive tendencies are the norm. Psychosis is also common.[4] Other possible symptom is punding, repetition of complex motor behaviors such as collecting or arranging objects."
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Old 05-02-09, 12:52 PM
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Re: Adderall and dopamine depletion

this topic interest me...can someone translate that for me???
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Old 05-02-09, 01:18 PM
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Re: Adderall and dopamine depletion

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Originally Posted by johnny s. View Post
this topic interest me...can someone translate that for me???
I second this
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Old 05-02-09, 03:41 PM
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Re: Adderall and dopamine depletion

basically...dopamine depletion = the worst possible thing for an ADHD sufferer. It exacerbates our existing issues...from what I can tell. The medicine initially makes everything better and then after a while, you become dependent on it and eventually, if you ever try going without it, everything is...much worse, or maybe it just seems that way after being better for the first time... at least I have noticed this to some degree.
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Old 05-02-09, 05:32 PM
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Re: Adderall and dopamine depletion

One day we may know if this was a smart idea - taking meds that is.
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Old 05-03-09, 03:19 AM
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Re: Adderall and dopamine depletion

Sorry, I thought Wikipedia said it better than I could, but that article is a little wordy.

Basically, it means medications like Adderall and Dex stimulate dopamine release in the brain. So the drug causes the brain to produce more dopamine, which activates your brain's reward system. But after awhile, the reward system gets used to the extra dopamine, and it needs even more to become activated. So you have to increase your dose just to get the same effects you got when you first started treatment. That's how people get addicted or become dependent on the drug. So when you stop taking the drug, your brain can't produce enough dopamine to activate the reward system. You now require the drug for normal brain functioning. That's Dopamine dysregulation syndrome.

However, that's just a theory that could explain addiction. So before you panic and think "OMG, medication is bad, it's ruining my brain!" keep in mind that no one knows for sure if that's really what happens after prolonged use. Even if it does, it doesn't happen to everyone, and if you stay at the dose your doctor prescribed, you'll be fine.
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Old 05-03-09, 05:15 PM
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Re: Adderall and dopamine depletion

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Originally Posted by burning8timer View Post
Can adderal alone cause dopamine depletion?

Would this mean that NOT on a stimulant or on adderall you would find no pleasure in things?
It does to some extent, but getting certain OTC drugs like L-Tyrosine can help replenish and get your dopamine levels back to normal. Which it seems to actually make the adderall stronger, because replenishing your dopamine levels back to normal it can almost feel like taking it for the first time. So basically it lowers your tolerance. . Adderall doesn't effect serotonin as much, but it would be smart to also take some 5-HTP to replenish serotonin levels, but it's not as nesecarry as L-Tyrosine.

BTW if you take L-Tyrosine don't take it at the same time as adderall, take it on breaks from adderall, before taking adderall and/or after coming down from it.

Look up on studies. Apperantly it is the best thing we can be taking for adderall for lowering tolerance and keeping our dopamine levels healthy.
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Old 05-04-09, 01:47 AM
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Re: Adderall and dopamine depletion

My psych treats a lot of adult ADD patients and his belief is that tolerance (which is basically what this article is referring to) isn't an issue when talking about therapeutic doses.

However, even if he's wrong, to a certain extent I'm not sure it matter. Before meds, my brain was not getting/producing enough dopamine. I couldn't focus, I was tired all the time, I couldn't concentrate, nothing every got done and I never followed through on anything, and I suffered "euphoria," "dysphoria," "fatigue," "apathy," and a whole range of "impulse control disorders."

So now I'm on meds and doing quite well. Is it possible that at some point in the future I will again find that I'm suffering from not getting/producing enough dopamine? Of course it is. But even if that happens, I'd just basically be back where I was before, my brain having developed a tolerance to my existing med regimen.

Maybe increasing meds would help at that point; maybe not. Maybe changing meds would help, or not. There's no way to know because I'm not in that situation right now. All I know for sure is that the last eight months have been FAR better on meds than they would have been if I'd never started, a fact which is pretty much all I need to know to convince me that going on them in the first place was definitely the right decision.

I can't worry about what might happen years down the road; there's no guarantee that I (or any one of us) will live that long. Finding a way to live a satisfying, meaningful life day-to-day now is what I'm concerned with, and the meds have cleared away a lot of the roadblocks that previously stood in my way.
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Old 05-26-10, 06:26 AM
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Re: Adderall and dopamine depletion

@KillZone

Serotonin, 5-HT ,should NOT be taken with Adderall or any MAOI except under careful, professional supervision. In addition, Adderall's limited effect on serotonergic systems should not indicate its use. From my reading L-DOPA would make sense as it is a direct prodrug. L-DOPA is available OTC as an herbal supplement, sometimes under the name Velvet Bean (Mucuna pruriens).

Taking serotonin or serotonin augmenters / re-uptake inhibitors ( MAOIs, SSRIs, SNRIs, NRIs, Bupriron, and tri-cyclic anti-depressants) increases the risk of potentially fatal serotonin syndrome (serotonin intoxication / overdose).

Concomitant use of of Adderall and serotonin augmenting agents should be approached with caution and never exceeding normal recommended doses for each single substance. Those who choose to do so outside professional supervision should learn to recognize the signs and symptoms of serotonin syndrome and seek emergency medical assistance if serotonin syndrome is suspected. Serotonin syndrome is very treatable, but not with any tools you have in your arsenal.

(Gosh, that sounded like an FDA monograph)

Bottom line, be careful, know the full effects of Adderall on all neurotransmitters and be prepared to deal with unusual syndromes and emergency situations if they arise.

I might sound overly-cautious, but a friend snapped on this combination even while under medical supervision. Messing with serotonin seems to lead to some unexpected results. For her, mental recovery was not easy...
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Old 05-26-10, 10:19 AM
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Re: Adderall and dopamine depletion

stay away from L-DOPA or any attempts to make yourself have more dopamine....its a dark and ugly road, just leads to stronger addiction and recovery than ever before it.

exercise, sleep well, eat right and keep your dosage to the minimum to get therapeutic effect and you'll be allright. you try to go around and circumvent our natural homeostasis system you are going to get bit hard, its ok to have bad days even on the meds, they arent there to fix all your bad days and make them pleasurable
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Old 05-26-10, 10:21 AM
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Re: Adderall and dopamine depletion

L-DOPA does not work that way. It is a rather poor substitute for dopamine, and causes unpleasant side effects in users who take it. I have looked extensively into it, and it is not the answer. L-Trytophan might be a better choice, but as far as I understand, more Adderall is probably still the best choice.

Parkinson's medications are what I'm currently looking into, but then again I am at a low dosage.
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Old 05-26-10, 10:26 AM
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Re: Adderall and dopamine depletion

Quote:
Originally Posted by context View Post
@KillZone

Serotonin, 5-HT ,should NOT be taken with Adderall or any MAOI except under careful, professional supervision. In addition, Adderall's limited effect on serotonergic systems should not indicate its use. From my reading L-DOPA would make sense as it is a direct prodrug. L-DOPA is available OTC as an herbal supplement, sometimes under the name Velvet Bean (Mucuna pruriens).

Taking serotonin or serotonin augmenters / re-uptake inhibitors ( MAOIs, SSRIs, SNRIs, NRIs, Bupriron, and tri-cyclic anti-depressants) increases the risk of potentially fatal serotonin syndrome (serotonin intoxication / overdose).

Concomitant use of of Adderall and serotonin augmenting agents should be approached with caution and never exceeding normal recommended doses for each single substance. Those who choose to do so outside professional supervision should learn to recognize the signs and symptoms of serotonin syndrome and seek emergency medical assistance if serotonin syndrome is suspected. Serotonin syndrome is very treatable, but not with any tools you have in your arsenal.

(Gosh, that sounded like an FDA monograph)

Bottom line, be careful, know the full effects of Adderall on all neurotransmitters and be prepared to deal with unusual syndromes and emergency situations if they arise.

I might sound overly-cautious, but a friend snapped on this combination even while under medical supervision. Messing with serotonin seems to lead to some unexpected results. For her, mental recovery was not easy...
I do find it strange that you mention the hazard of SSRIs when zoloft is commonly prescribed with adderall(not strange as in you're wrong, strange as in the fact that zoloft is prescribed along side adderall).

I wonder if doctors realized that adderall works as an indirect inhibitor to serotonin and mixed with a drug that directly influences the inhibition of reuptake of that neurotransmitter(SSRIs; zoloft), that the problem of excessive serotonin is introduced(i.e. the syndrome).
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Old 05-26-10, 10:41 AM
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Re: Adderall and dopamine depletion

Thats what I got, and it has made my ADD worst. I will have to talk to my doctor about discontinuing it or switching to a different one.

The reason they are often prescribed together though, is that despite the warnings, nothing happens. It is very rare for SSRIs in combination to cause serotonin syndrome.
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Old 05-26-10, 10:51 AM
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Re: Adderall and dopamine depletion

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Originally Posted by Naussicaa View Post
Thats what I got, and it has made my ADD worst. I will have to talk to my doctor about discontinuing it or switching to a different one.

The reason they are often prescribed together though, is that despite the warnings, nothing happens. It is very rare for SSRIs in combination to cause serotonin syndrome.

Well from personal experience. I have been on wellbutrin and zoloft, but not at the same time of course.

When I was on wellbutrin it simply made me angry and violent. Wellbutrin is a norepinephrine and dopamine reuptake inhibitor (NDRI).


So I find it very strange that Adderall, being similar to wellbutrin in its actions, helps me. Why is it that one drug which does pretty much the same thing as another drug, works. But the other does not?


My reasoning of why a psychological drug works different in different people has been that our brain chemistry tends to change from person to person. But when one drug that does similar things works one way and another drug which is similar to the first drug does something different, I have no idea why.


I can only surmise that Wellbutrin and Adderall work on different parts of the brain. And maybe this is why zoloft is less dangerous. Maybe zoloft works on different parts of the brain than adderall when ti comes to serotonin.

The only difference in adderall though being that it works with serotonin as well through indirect effects. It could be that 3 pronged mix that makes it work well with me. Oh well.
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