Who REALLY suffers with ADHD?

[AliKatski]

I_Dtour,

Of course you're absolutely right, I couldn't have put it better myself (whether it's easy or not, it's a great topic of discussion). I never deny the struggle that I (and every other ADDer) must go through, but I do (like almost every other ADDer) make light of the situation and put on a 'front' that tries to convince other people that I'm perfectly ok.

I would never presume to belittle the struggles of other ADDers, nor would I be so crass as to fill a thread with self-praise (although it's a good idea for a new thread), but the 'auto-defence' habit that so many ADDers have is annoying and is the sole reason for phrases such as 'sympathy scammer' and the widespread opinion that ADHD is made up and played up to by most of its sufferers. After all, the art of conversation would be so much easier for us if we would only accept that other people are allowed an opinion.

'Smile! Somewhere it's sunny...'

Ali

[Impromptu_DTour]

The funny thing is, the more we tell ourselves something, the more we believe it to be true. Even if we initially recognize it to be a lie. This works both ways. The challenge that i percieve alot of ADDrs to embrace is that the brain has been shown to produce far more activity on negative trains of thought, which is why its so easy to settle into a lull of negative thinking and vibes, and so easy to believe them. The issue that i percieve ADDrs to have in light of this can be so much more critical because of how we can inadvertaintly ruminate on things, especially when we dont want to.

But that doesnt mean we should stop trying to see the silver lining all together, even if we know we cant cash in on it (this time). Cause then we would truly suffer.

I_DTour

[ginniebean]

Originally Posted by AliKatski

the 'auto-defence' habit that so many ADDers have is annoying and is the sole reason for phrases such as 'sympathy scammer' and the widespread opinion that ADHD is made up and played up to by most of its sufferers. After all, the art of conversation would be so much easier for us if we would only accept that other people are allowed an opinion.

'Smile! Somewhere it's sunny...'

Ali

I had to read this a few times to make sure I read this right...

The auto defence = annoying = misattribution = attitudes of ignorant public?

HUH?


Can you explain the 'auto defence'? I am having a hard time understanding this? Do you mean that when we say "it's because I'm adhd'?

[Impromptu_DTour]

Originally Posted by ginniebean

HUH?


Can you explain the 'auto defence'? I am having a hard time understanding this? Do you mean that when we say "it's because I'm adhd'?

Afterthought: im kinda tangled on that one too.. from what i can interpret (from the context of this section of the thread) your trying to express that you percieve a natural instinct for an ADDr to have, is to snap at people who seem to play up the condition in order to get sympathy? thereby influencing a widespred misconception that ADHD is mostly still just an excuse? i think thats what you were trying to say. . i'll work from that since ive already gone too far ;D

this 'auto defense' feature could be seen as natural ADD trait.. well.. it wouldnt be any more ADD than, a bad day really.. in my perspective of the ADD Personality, in response to some form of behavioral conditioning, i would say its much easier to be sensitive to opinions that come off as.. how to say.. preachy? rather than subjective perspectives?

LOL! ok here we go..

We seem to be very very particular about our thresholds for the choice in words, strategy of presentation, and timing, of when someone presents an "opinion".. we seem to be noticeably sensitive about this, yes. I can find myself agreeing with that..

however, then we can tend to be traitors to our own tolerances in other people, because we are very opinionated, not even just "very", but strongly and even bluntly opinionated. Even without intention, we (unless we are perceptive of ourselves) are generally not aware of this. We often use the wrong words ourselves, and our strategy of delivery is often miscalculated. Lets not even talk about our sense for proper timing ;D

So it would be easy to see why we would have an Auto Defense against ourselves (as a community) of sorts. LOL! We expect to be treated differently than (generally speaking) we (though unintentionally) treat others.

It seems that as ADDrs, our skillsets in aspects such as Awareness in other people, and awareness of ourselves, and especially various communication aspects, are different. Not lost, but different.

We spend our lives being aware of ourselves as.. in most cases, the only ADDr in a town of Neurotypicals. That in itself can birth a very different set of interpersonal skills and especially filters, than say.. a Neurotypical in a town of Neurotypicals... and dare i say, a completely different set of interpersonal skills all together when that ADDr, meets another ADDr. We're used to communicating and getting our ideas across to NTs.. and having things presented to us in a different format. But it would seem (in my opinion.. ) that a challenge between 2 ADDrs, is being consciencous of those differences.

So mixed messages and missed messages, and unintentionally sent messages.. could very easilly get thrown out there, and gobbled up by us (the recieving ADDr), who is generally accustomed to recieving feedback in such a method from someone who doesnt understand.. and yet.. expects other "true" ADDrs to do just that.. when it seems that in all truth we might be the least better equipped party to accomidate that.

Um.. O_o

whatever the hell i just went off on.. LOL it was like i was channeling some outer being of nonsense. I just woke up and drool was ebbing down to the floor.. wild man. No more gluten.

Anyway.. i guess... thats my opinion? and perspective? someone get back to me and validate that for me.. HAH!

*&#@in eh, that was some sweet random tangientness. Im not even going to spellcheck that.. thats pure unadulterated 'wtf' right there.. =)

I_DTour

[ginniebean]

Originally Posted by Impromptu_DTour

whatever the hell i just went off on.. LOL it was like i was channeling some outer being of nonsense. I just woke up and drool was ebbing down to the floor.. wild man. No more gluten.

Anyway.. i guess... thats my opinion? and perspective? someone get back to me and validate that for me.. HAH!

*&#@in eh, that was some sweet random tangientness. Im not even going to spellcheck that.. thats pure unadulterated 'wtf' right there.. =)

I_DTour

The strange thing about this is.. I was following along going... yeah.. oh... now that's so interesting.. and then I got to the end and thought.. what did I just read? oh well in any case I was right in that WTF with you and it was making perfect sense.. cooool eh?

[Retromancer]

Look if you monitor this forum long enough you start seeing patterns. One of these is that of the periodic arrival of the believer in the "positive side of ADD" who just has to share their insight with their fellow benighted forum members. Often they will cite the same damn websites. Deja vu all over again -- and again.

Excuse me if I am a wee bit cranky. I feel like I'm in the movie Groundhog Day, stuck in a never ending loop.

[Retromancer]

Hey I'm just here for the conversation -- more entertaining than waiting in line at the methadone clinic...

Originally Posted by Impromptu_DTour

whatever the hell i just went off on.. LOL it was like i was channeling some outer being of nonsense. I just woke up and drool was ebbing down to the floor.. wild man. No more gluten.

[peripatetic]

Originally Posted by AliKatski

Yeah but from an ADDer? I've spent my life hearing phrases like 'get over it' and other tiringly inane attempts to scare me into getting 'better'. Surely attacking an ADDer because he's found his own way of dealing with it kind of defeats the object of a 'help and support' forum?

how would you differentiate between those people telling you to 'get over it' and you saying:

ADHD is full of positive points, and though it may be sometimes frustrating and annoying to us and those around us, it's a gift which should be appreciated and used properly. I you had a TV and didn't know how to tune it, what good is it to you? In that way, ADHD is as personal as a fingerprint, and every ADDer should, IMO, discover and appreciate the gifts he has in order to learn how to use them.

emphasis mine.

those people are telling you to get over it and you're telling us to see it as a gift and appreciate it. both are equally frustrating imperatives for the receiver.

And as for band-aids, I take no meds (only natural things - not even aspirin) and have spent a very long time dealing with ADHD (cold turkey - my choice) and establishing a system of living that uses the bad points for good things and the good points for enjoyment.

not everyone has that option. you sound grateful for it and i think that's appropriate; you should be. i'm not sure what you were referencing, but i'm going to give you the benefit of doubt and say that you weren't suggesting that we can all go this route and be even mildly successful with it...

At risk of being hated, maybe we should ask ourselves why the phrase 'positive attitude' causes us so much pain?

for me, personally, it's because it often comes off like a slap in the face. like if i were just more 'positive' then everything would work out just fine. the 'power of thinking positively bringing about the reality you want' is just *********. maybe it does for someone, but there have been many times where being 'positive' isn't going to change my situation at all. sure, i could just ignore it or something, but it's sometimes hard to find the silver lining when you've royally messed up and you can't fix what you've broken.

i'm usually pretty sedate about it because i think it tends to identify someone who is either not coming to grips with their circumstances or someone who just isn't having the same issues leading to the same consequences. it's just annoying as hell to read about the 'gift' that can cause me enormous amounts of grief.

i get that there are loads of people who have manageable situations. fact is: i'm *****ing envious as h*ll. but hearing someone tell you to 'think positive' as though that will make everything better is like having an ice cream cone where the ice cream has fallen on the ground and you're standing there with an empty cone while other people are gathered around talking about how delicious the ice cream is and simultaneously telling you that you should 'think positive' about having only a cone and somehow the ice cream will reappear inside it.

You can spend the rest of your life either a) miserable or b) happy. It's no-one's choice but your own.

i'm fortunate not to have depression, but i imagine that those who do wouldn't agree with this *choice* as being one's own...

[Retromancer]

Originally Posted by peripatetic

...hearing someone tell you to 'think positive' as though that will make everything better is like having an ice cream cone where the ice cream has fallen on the ground and you're standing there with an empty cone while other people are gathered around talking about how delicious the ice cream is and simultaneously telling you that you should 'think positive' about having only a cone and somehow the ice cream will reappear inside it.

Amen brother!

[ditzydreamer]

Originally Posted by AliKatski

My point exactly. Blaming co-morbids etc. for our perception of suffering is wrong. We spend our lives learning and establishing our own mind set through, amongst other things, our upbringing. I was brought up to 'fight hard to fix it, but smile', and as a result I have a PMA.

Ignoring comorbids and the impact they can have on our perception of our level of suffering is ignoring a large part of the 'how and why' some might suffer more than others. I would actually consider that comorbids just might make all the difference in how we view our personal suffering...and that of others around us. Comorbids are as much a part of those who have them as ADHD...if that makes any sense...

Originally Posted by AliKatski

I did not, at any point during this thread, ask for anyone's judgement on my personal method of dealing with ADHD, simply asked who, in your opinion suffers the most from your ADHD...

Maybe that's the problem, it's just not a 'simple' question...

Originally Posted by AliKatski

You can spend the rest of your life either a) miserable or b) happy. It's no-one's choice but your own.

THIS is my guess as to why you are getting negative feedback. Even though I do try to teach my kids to look on the bright side, and nurture their sense of humour so that they can hopefully better cope with tough situations, it is completely unfair and ignorant to imply that we have all been dealt the same cards and have this inner ability to simply 'choose' to be happy.

I wasn't raised in a positive environment whatsoever. I experienced physical abuse and emotional trauma on a regular basis. I have taken as much responsibility for my own outcome as I can and I continue to trudge uphill as best I can looking for new ideas and information that might help me. It is a small miracle (and the result of a lot of hard work!) that I have managed to learn not to be an abusive parent myself and made strides in my mental health that the rest of my sisters still struggle with in ignorance. In that regard, I consider myself to be quite optimistic...

Unfortunately the whole positive attitude idea isn't new to me as I tried to brainwash myself for years into believing "positive" thoughts. I say 'brainwash' only because it does not come naturally to me whatsoever. I don't think you have been brainwashed...
I have been able to go off of medication for depression here and there, but overall ADHD compounded by anxiety and depression has KILLED any ability and ambition to think positively on a regular basis. It is something that probably brought more guilt and self-defamation than any other strategy I have used because in the end, it didn't solve anything...and I am still just as ADHD as I was before, having the same consequences as before...and I was not able to change into "who I wanted to be" as I truly believed I would. It's not something I tried for a few weeks, I put years into trying to learn to be positive...

Originally Posted by AliKatski

I never deny the struggle that I (and every other ADDer) must go through, but I do (like almost every other ADDer) make light of the situation and put on a 'front' that tries to convince other people that I'm perfectly ok.

...I hesitate to ask, (but I do so in ernest) ..does that not mean you are faking it?? Or maybe I am misunderstanding what you mean by "putting on a front"...??

I am glad (and somewhat envious as well) that you have found your positive character to be of such benefit to you! But, to me, "positive thinking" is a bandaid, or temporary fix just as much as medication and coping strategies, all which I have used and must use daily; sometimes necessary to get through a situation, but ultimately not a practical (or pragmatic?) strategy for the long-term as I feel it has let me down and not delivered...

Just my two cents.

[NoReally]

Originally Posted by AliKatski

The fact that I believe that people around me suffer more than I do is my own opinion, and if nothing else, demonstrated the fact that I am NOT 'irresponsible' (because I acknowledge their suffering) NOR am I 'uncaring'.

I think that may depend on how the people around you handle their suffering -- if they take it out on you, then they feel better and you feel worse and worse. If they are indulgent and understanding, and can manage to defuse their frustration without taking it out on you, then you have the chance to feel peace about yourself.

If they handle their suffering by firing you and you have no job, then you've got a big problem regardless of how positively you spin it for yourself.

Originally Posted by AliKatski

Surely attacking an ADDer because he's found his own way of dealing with it kind of defeats the object of a 'help and support' forum?

I hear you. It's just a fine line and people will fall on either side of it. It's hard to celebrate a win without other people feeling like they lost. Especially if they tried the same things and they didn't work.

Originally Posted by Impromptu_DTour

I have found my peace, and have lost it, and have found it, and have been fooled once again, and have found it, and im currently still holding onto it - for now.

This. I've gotten to a point where I'm pretty skeptical of myself when I think I've found the answers -- the same things might not work 2 years or even 2 months down the road. Or heck, next week.

[Ganjin]

The Buddha would point out here that suffering is inherent to all existence. I realize not everyone subscribes to this point of view, but I would argue it is not simply a matter of faith. Empirically, I think one can see that suffering is more than just widespread in this world. It is pervasive.

Now personally, I cannot see a way to measure suffering in such a way that I could estimate exactly how much of it is due directly to ADHD. Even if I could, I don't know how I could then measure my own suffering against those that suffer at my hands.

I'll say this though: ADHD has contributed to considerable suffering on my part. This comes in the form of co-morbid depression, a constant craving for stimulation (almost the definition of suffering in Buddhism), and so many other ways. But for me, the worst suffering is the pain I feel as a result of doing harm to others. These include my partner, and most important, my daughters.

Looked at this way, the question of who suffers more isn't just difficult; I think it's just not important to me. When my daughter interrupts me when I'm in a hyper-focused fog and I respond with a completely unwarranted flash of white-hot anger, who suffers more? It doesn't matter - the important thing is that we work to reduce the suffering all around us.

Can we put an absolute end to all of this suffering? Maybe. Buddhism and other practices offer paths to this end. But for most of us, that objective is a long way off.

[AliKatski]

Originally Posted by ginniebean

I had to read this a few times to make sure I read this right...

The auto defence = annoying = misattribution = attitudes of ignorant public?

HUH?


Can you explain the 'auto defence'? I am having a hard time understanding this? Do you mean that when we say "it's because I'm adhd'?

By 'Auto defence', I meant the automatic 'don't tell me to be positive because I'm really suffering and you, of course, do not understand' attitude of a lot of people. Of course, it's true that we do suffer, and a lot more than most people give us credit for, but to instantly go on the defensive because someone's trying to cheer you up (for example) is completely counter-productive.

Originally Posted by ditzydreamer

it is completely unfair and ignorant to imply that we have all been dealt the same cards and have this inner ability to simply 'choose' to be happy.

The choice to be happy is the beginning. What you do to make that choice become reality is an entirely different matter (and sometimes involves meds, psychs etc. I think you get the idea)...

...I hesitate to ask, (but I do so in ernest) ..does that not mean you are faking it?? Or maybe I am misunderstanding what you mean by "putting on a front"...??

Ok, so maybe I wasn't entirely clear in my meaning here... my 'front' is only there to stop NTers from continuously asking me if I'm 'alright'. It's a defense strategy designed to give myself the psychological room I need to cope with my problems.

peripatetic: I was diagnosed with Manic Depression about ten years back (and landed in hospital several times as a result), and part of my therapy was exploring the difference between seeing the bright side and actually believing in the bright side. One might argue for days using analogies (the ice-cream is a great one...), but if someone concentrates on how sh*tty his life is, and sits in the corner lamenting the fact that he cannot see the bright side, things are never going to improve. I had to force myself to learn to find the good side, and use that as leverage to help myself out of the downward spiral I was on (and I still have the scars).

With an ADDer's built-in ability for abstract thinking, we are naturally equipped to see this 'bright side' (no matter how small and obscure it is). I appreciate that I may be disliked for thinking this way, but what the hell, I've been disliked most of my life (sound familiar? The bright side is that I got to know myself really well).

'Don't get angry - find out why...'

Peas

Ali

[Retromancer]

Chalk it up to literally years of hypomanics and hyperactives lecturing me to be positive. No, clearly they do not understand -- otherwise they would not be lecturing me.

Send lawyers, guns and/or money. Otherwise just shut the ***** up!

Originally Posted by AliKatski

By 'Auto defence', I meant the automatic 'don't tell me to be positive because I'm really suffering and you, of course, do not understand' attitude of a lot of people. Of course, it's true that we do suffer, and a lot more than most people give us credit for, but to instantly go on the defensive because someone's trying to cheer you up (for example) is completely counter-productive.



The choice to be happy is the beginning. What you do to make that choice become reality is an entirely different matter (and sometimes involves meds, psychs etc. I think you get the idea)...



Ok, so maybe I wasn't entirely clear in my meaning here... my 'front' is only there to stop NTers from continuously asking me if I'm 'alright'. It's a defense strategy designed to give myself the psychological room I need to cope with my problems.

peripatetic: I was diagnosed with Manic Depression about ten years back (and landed in hospital several times as a result), and part of my therapy was exploring the difference between seeing the bright side and actually believing in the bright side. One might argue for days using analogies (the ice-cream is a great one...), but if someone concentrates on how sh*tty his life is, and sits in the corner lamenting the fact that he cannot see the bright side, things are never going to improve. I had to force myself to learn to find the good side, and use that as leverage to help myself out of the downward spiral I was on (and I still have the scars).

With an ADDer's built-in ability for abstract thinking, we are naturally equipped to see this 'bright side' (no matter how small and obscure it is). I appreciate that I may be disliked for thinking this way, but what the hell, I've been disliked most of my life (sound familiar? The bright side is that I got to know myself really well).

'Don't get angry - find out why...'

Peas

Ali

[AliKatski]

Originally Posted by Retromancer

Chalk it up to literally years of hypomanics and hyperactives lecturing me to be positive. No, clearly they do not understand -- otherwise they would not be lecturing me.

Send lawyers, guns and/or money. Otherwise just shut the ***** up!

So you understand... Which means you're in a better position than they are...

Enough said

Ali