ADD Forums - Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder Support and Information Resources Community  

Go Back   ADD Forums - Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder Support and Information Resources Community > TREATMENT & MANAGEMENT > Medications > Vyvanse
Register Blogs FAQ Chat Members List Calendar Donate Gallery Arcade Mark Forums Read

Vyvanse (lisdexamfetamine dimesylate)

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 05-31-10, 12:30 PM
eckk eckk is offline
Member
 

Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Posts: 36
Thanks: 1
Thanked 5 Times in 5 Posts
eckk is on a distinguished road
Unhappy am I experience a too high dose of Vyvanse?

I have been on Vyvanse since originally diagnosed with ADHD in March of this year. I started on 30mg, then 50mg, 80mg and now 100mg.

I used to take 50mg with coffee. The coffee amplified my focus and motivation but everything else was lacking so I was moved to 80mg without caffeine.

80 without caffeine was good but I didn't feel quite there yet as far as focus and motivation (compared to the 50mg with coffee) so my doctor put me on 100mg.

Now it has taken me two weeks to figure this out and I am thinking that I am experiencing symptoms of a too high dose? This is what I have noticed in the last 2 weeks and thought maybe I just got a bug in Mexico (came back on the 8th, started dosage on the 18th):

1) I'm experiencing headaches like every 2 days to the point that I have to take tylenol every 4-5 hours or sometimes the headache is mild (tension) and I can do without. I'm also more irritable.

2) It feels like the 100 mg dose doesn't last as long as the 80mg. I am a shift worker and take it when I get up and 80mg used to last until I got home and I know this because sometimes if I didn't time it just right, I would get insomnia. With the 100mg, it feels like it lasts about 9 hours. By the time I get home, I am totally experiencing my ADHD symptoms.

Actually I think what got me to post here today is I went to my squad's party and at about 7PM, I couldn't stop trying to cut people off (my impulsivity) and felt so self-conscious when I came back home and bummed out about how I must have looked to ppl there!


2) I have noticed this since taking it...I talk a lot! I usually talk a lot (french/italian to boot!) but I talk way way wayyy more. To the point that my jaw actually hurts (this was never the case with lower dose or even when not taking meds)

3) I have also experienced sensitivity to light with the headaches.

When I originally started to take Vyvanse I had cottonmouth for a week and never had it since then (march) now that I dr upper my dosage, cottonmouth is so bad and I am so badly dehydrated that I can't keep up with the water and get leg cramps at night if I'm not careful.

I just took my Vyvanse (100mg) about an hour ago and just felt the headache come on so the dr's admin said to go back to 80mg until I can get in to see the doctor.

Please Tell me I'm not making this stuff up!

eck

Last edited by eckk; 05-31-10 at 12:40 PM.. Reason: forgot something
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 05-31-10, 01:17 PM
demo3210's Avatar
demo3210 demo3210 is offline
Contributor
 

Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: USA
Posts: 310
Thanks: 104
Thanked 72 Times in 49 Posts
demo3210 is an unknown quantity at this point
Re: am I experience a too high dose of Vyvanse?

First, talk to your doctor ASAP.

Secondly, to me you sound sleep deprived. Do you have a regular consistent sleep schedule? Are you getting at least 8 hours of sleep? Do you have a sleep deficit? You have to make up a sleep deficit somewhere.

Third is nutrition. Are you eating a balanced diet (to some extent)? Are you eating at least 3 meals a day? Have you thought about a multivitamin? Have you thought about taking a magnesium supplement (research shows that over 60% of the U.S. population is magnesium deficient and it often causes headaches). Also, magnesium relaxes your muscles to an extent, which might explain your leg cramps (besides the dehydration aspect). If you decide to take magnesium, don't get magnesium-oxide (is the least absorbed form).

I think the best thing you could do, is to stop taking Vyvanse for at least a couple days to see if your headaches go away and catch up on any sleep you've been missing out on. I think your medication will return to a more normal effectiveness for you. And stop drinking caffeine.

And lastly, talk to your doctor.

Once again, I'm not a doctor, which is why you should talk to yours first, and the things I state may be wrong or affect you adversely.
__________________
* I am not a doctor and the statements I post may be wrong in their entirety or may be out of date, but I will do the best I can to help you with factual objective information.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 05-31-10, 07:26 PM
eckk eckk is offline
Member
 

Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Posts: 36
Thanks: 1
Thanked 5 Times in 5 Posts
eckk is on a distinguished road
Re: am I experience a too high dose of Vyvanse?

Quote:
Originally Posted by demo3210 View Post
First, talk to your doctor ASAP.

Secondly, to me you sound sleep deprived. Do you have a regular consistent sleep schedule? Are you getting at least 8 hours of sleep? Do you have a sleep deficit? You have to make up a sleep deficit somewhere.

Third is nutrition. Are you eating a balanced diet (to some extent)? Are you eating at least 3 meals a day? Have you thought about a multivitamin? Have you thought about taking a magnesium supplement (research shows that over 60% of the U.S. population is magnesium deficient and it often causes headaches). Also, magnesium relaxes your muscles to an extent, which might explain your leg cramps (besides the dehydration aspect). If you decide to take magnesium, don't get magnesium-oxide (is the least absorbed form).

I think the best thing you could do, is to stop taking Vyvanse for at least a couple days to see if your headaches go away and catch up on any sleep you've been missing out on. I think your medication will return to a more normal effectiveness for you. And stop drinking caffeine.

And lastly, talk to your doctor.

Once again, I'm not a doctor, which is why you should talk to yours first, and the things I state may be wrong or affect you adversely.
I don't have a regular sleep schedule because I am a shift worker on rotational shifts. It has been this way since for years.

I'm typically a 8 hour person but If take my meds too late, I have a hard time getting to sleep. What I have found though while on Vyvanse is that sometimes I will go from deep sleep to what my doctor says 'phase 2' which is a lighter sleep. It's like being meta-aware that you are dreaming. You are dreaming but you can hear everything around you. He said with a higher dose, this should get fixed.. it seems to have gotten better.

My diet has been the same the whole time and I get at least 5 smalller meals a day.

I have not had any caffeine in at least 2 months now.

In the end, all of these symptoms have surfaced since I started the 100mg.
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
  #4  
Old 06-01-10, 12:51 AM
novaprospekt novaprospekt is offline
Contributor
 

Join Date: May 2010
Location: New York, NY
Posts: 257
Thanks: 19
Thanked 99 Times in 70 Posts
novaprospekt will become famous soon enough
Re: am I experience a too high dose of Vyvanse?

Hi there

Let me start out with these tidbits of info:

Caffeine potentiates the effects of Vyvanse and other amphetamine type drugs. Consuming coffee will cause blood levels of the drug to remain higher than they normally would until the caffeine begins wearing off -- then you get a drop.

So drinking coffee + (x)milligrams of Vyvanse is going to feel a bit more powerful than (x) milligrams by itself. Second, the caffeine is going to make the insomnia side effect of Vyvanse worse as well.

I take 40mg daily around 9am and by 11:30ish, I am craving caffeine (for some reason the Vyvanse makes me want caffeine like crazy which I guess isn't surprising considering its chemistry). There are some days when the Vyvanse, my several cups of coffee and my other medication are all wearing off at the same time and I get a massive headache where I need advil or something. This only happens some of the time though. I am an EMT as well as a pre-health/biochem student and I noticed that coinciding with this headache, my blood pressure and pulse are abnormally high - possibly a side effect of the meds.

The increased talkativeness you feel while on your dose is a side effect of the stimulant and is completely normal. Higher doses mean side effects are more intense, so the fact you only feel some things on 100mg isn't surprising compared to 80. The higher doses can also cause anxiety, and another side effect is called 'bruxism' which is jaw-clenching/teeth grinding and that can also give you a sore jaw and headache.

One last point is that these medications can cause a tolerance pretty quickly, so a dose that doesnt seem effective for you anymore may need to be increased.

Based on what you've said though, I'd suggest going back to the 80mg for now, and maybe trying the 80mg with a little bit of coffee. This way its more potent than the 80mg alone, but not as strong as the 100mg which you seem to feel is doing a bit more harm than the good it does.

And finally, to address your sleeping problems -- talk to your doctor first but -- I suggest taking an Advil PM (or Tylenol PM or Benadryl) which has a sleep-aid built into it called diphenhydramine. It's technically an antihistamine but it's used offlabel to help people sleep and I'd go so far in saying that its almost as powerful as Ambien without the drawbacks. I use Advil PM's routinely to fall asleep since I take two amphetamines and have terrible insomnia.

Hopefully this helps
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 06-01-10, 05:44 AM
eckk eckk is offline
Member
 

Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Posts: 36
Thanks: 1
Thanked 5 Times in 5 Posts
eckk is on a distinguished road
Talking Re: am I experience a too high dose of Vyvanse?

Quote:
Originally Posted by novaprospekt View Post
Hi there

Let me start out with these tidbits of info:

Caffeine potentiates the effects of Vyvanse and other amphetamine type drugs. Consuming coffee will cause blood levels of the drug to remain higher than they normally would until the caffeine begins wearing off -- then you get a drop.

So drinking coffee + (x)milligrams of Vyvanse is going to feel a bit more powerful than (x) milligrams by itself. Second, the caffeine is going to make the insomnia side effect of Vyvanse worse as well.

I take 40mg daily around 9am and by 11:30ish, I am craving caffeine (for some reason the Vyvanse makes me want caffeine like crazy which I guess isn't surprising considering its chemistry). There are some days when the Vyvanse, my several cups of coffee and my other medication are all wearing off at the same time and I get a massive headache where I need advil or something. This only happens some of the time though. I am an EMT as well as a pre-health/biochem student and I noticed that coinciding with this headache, my blood pressure and pulse are abnormally high - possibly a side effect of the meds.

The increased talkativeness you feel while on your dose is a side effect of the stimulant and is completely normal. Higher doses mean side effects are more intense, so the fact you only feel some things on 100mg isn't surprising compared to 80. The higher doses can also cause anxiety, and another side effect is called 'bruxism' which is jaw-clenching/teeth grinding and that can also give you a sore jaw and headache.

One last point is that these medications can cause a tolerance pretty quickly, so a dose that doesnt seem effective for you anymore may need to be increased.

Based on what you've said though, I'd suggest going back to the 80mg for now, and maybe trying the 80mg with a little bit of coffee. This way its more potent than the 80mg alone, but not as strong as the 100mg which you seem to feel is doing a bit more harm than the good it does.

And finally, to address your sleeping problems -- talk to your doctor first but -- I suggest taking an Advil PM (or Tylenol PM or Benadryl) which has a sleep-aid built into it called diphenhydramine. It's technically an antihistamine but it's used offlabel to help people sleep and I'd go so far in saying that its almost as powerful as Ambien without the drawbacks. I use Advil PM's routinely to fall asleep since I take two amphetamines and have terrible insomnia.

Hopefully this helps
Hi there!

Thank you very much for the useful information. I can't get in to see my doctor until June 9th. I'm planning on following your advice and going back to the 80mg tomorrow. I'm going to see if the headaches go away for a few days and then try and add a bit of coffee, or maybe tea since it has less caffeine when brewed.

I already talk a lot so the extra talking for me I do not consider an option. If I didn't talk so much it might not be a big deal but it is.

I'm happy you mentioned anxiety, I totally forgot about it.

When I started taking Vyvanse, I found that my anxiety was directly related to how my symptoms affected my life and social situations. Ie, I'd blurt something out and then would spend too much time thinking about how much of an idiot I must of sounded like or what the persons who were there thought of me. I saw the anxiety go away. Now with the extra talking, I've felt increasingly anxious because of just that. I don't say blurt out anything but I talk wayyyyyyyy too much, causing people around me to notice.

I fell asleep tonight at about 11PM but now I'm up at 0240 hours. I basically went from deep sleep to waking up and thinking over and over and over about a critical incident that happened at work a few days prior (without even initiating it). It was like my brain woke up and started to think about it on its own and then I couldn't get my brain to stop. I guess it's like trying to fall asleep but having repetitive conscious thought of work except my body goes from sleep to wake doing it.

Is your insomnia anything like mine? I don't usually have a problem getting to sleep if I take my meds early enough.. I just sometimes end up waking up.

Another good example... while on holidays in mexico, I was reading a book that was absolutely fascinating to me and couldn't put it down. I read in bed before going to sleep. At about 2AM, my mind started to thinking about the book, over and over and over and it's like I was aware of it and aware of sounds in the room but somehow asleep and finally totally woke up because it was so damn annoying. It's like all those intrusive thoughts that I usually get without the meds had been held back and were flooding my brain!

-eck
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 06-01-10, 10:38 AM
novaprospekt novaprospekt is offline
Contributor
 

Join Date: May 2010
Location: New York, NY
Posts: 257
Thanks: 19
Thanked 99 Times in 70 Posts
novaprospekt will become famous soon enough
Re: am I experience a too high dose of Vyvanse?

Quote:
Originally Posted by eckk View Post
Hi there!

Thank you very much for the useful information. I can't get in to see my doctor until June 9th. I'm planning on following your advice and going back to the 80mg tomorrow. I'm going to see if the headaches go away for a few days and then try and add a bit of coffee, or maybe tea since it has less caffeine when brewed.

I already talk a lot so the extra talking for me I do not consider an option. If I didn't talk so much it might not be a big deal but it is.

I'm happy you mentioned anxiety, I totally forgot about it.

When I started taking Vyvanse, I found that my anxiety was directly related to how my symptoms affected my life and social situations. Ie, I'd blurt something out and then would spend too much time thinking about how much of an idiot I must of sounded like or what the persons who were there thought of me. I saw the anxiety go away. Now with the extra talking, I've felt increasingly anxious because of just that. I don't say blurt out anything but I talk wayyyyyyyy too much, causing people around me to notice.

I fell asleep tonight at about 11PM but now I'm up at 0240 hours. I basically went from deep sleep to waking up and thinking over and over and over about a critical incident that happened at work a few days prior (without even initiating it). It was like my brain woke up and started to think about it on its own and then I couldn't get my brain to stop. I guess it's like trying to fall asleep but having repetitive conscious thought of work except my body goes from sleep to wake doing it.

Is your insomnia anything like mine? I don't usually have a problem getting to sleep if I take my meds early enough.. I just sometimes end up waking up.

Another good example... while on holidays in mexico, I was reading a book that was absolutely fascinating to me and couldn't put it down. I read in bed before going to sleep. At about 2AM, my mind started to thinking about the book, over and over and over and it's like I was aware of it and aware of sounds in the room but somehow asleep and finally totally woke up because it was so damn annoying. It's like all those intrusive thoughts that I usually get without the meds had been held back and were flooding my brain!

-eck
Hey again

I'm glad I could help you clearing up some of your questions. I touched on the anxiety because I figured if you were having those other symptoms then you probably had the anxiety as well since that seems to be a common denominator. You are going to find that anxiety and stimulants are kind of married because of the way anxiety is caused chemically in the brain. The best you can do about that is try and find ways to cope and eventually not let it bother you.

You mentioned something interesting to me about the socializing. I've been on Wellbutrin (an amphetamine) for about a year and a half now, and Vyvanse for about 3 months. I noticed that while on these drugs I seem to notice things in more detail than other people. In other words, when I'm in conversation I seem to obsess over little details the person is saying and I feel like I observe things that others may overlook. I think the medical term for this is hypervigilance and that may be something you are experiencing as well-- and I can see how that can lead to a little anxiety.

As for the insomnia, yes some nights I have similar issues where I will fall asleep okay (with the help of the antihistamine) but I will get into a light sleep and sometimes actually wake up between the hours of 5am-7am (I fall asleep around 1:30am and wake at 9:15am) and my mind will be racing during those 2 hours. I will toss and turn in bed and be thinking about random things that happened the day before or just things in general and it takes a lot of effort to fall back asleep. The only reason I can think of that can cause this is to have residual amounts of the Vyvanse still in your blood that can interrupt one of your 'weaker' sleep cycles. The drug isn't completely cleared when your dose wears off at night -- the way in which drug clearance works is that there will be small traces in the later hours that take longer to be removed than larger amounts.

Maybe this is what you seem to be experiencing
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 06-01-10, 12:49 PM
demo3210's Avatar
demo3210 demo3210 is offline
Contributor
 

Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: USA
Posts: 310
Thanks: 104
Thanked 72 Times in 49 Posts
demo3210 is an unknown quantity at this point
Re: am I experience a too high dose of Vyvanse?

Here is what worked for me in treating insomnia. I encourage you to make your own decision on how to remedy your issues.

For insomnia:

I prefer a somewhat more 'natural' way without the morning grogginess - melatonin and/or Valerian root.

What works best for me is taking about 1.5mg of melatonin at night. Then if I don't feel tired at all still, I will also take a capsule or 2 of Valerian root and that combo has never failed me for 3 years.

With melatonin though, it's kind of tricky. I think less is more because if I start taking 3mg-5mg then the effects are not as good and the next day it doesn't work as well either. I think your body can tell when you have too much of it so it starts eliminating it faster.

Also, with melatonin you have an optimal time-window to get to sleep when you take it - don't wait more than 1 hour after taking it to start laying in bed to try to sleep because past 2-3 hours the effects subside and you feel awake again. 2:00 AM is the natural peak time of melatonin for most human circadian rhythms. Past that, your body is naturally reducing its melatonin levels.

Light is what affects the pineal gland (in the eye), which controls melatonin. At night, more light = less melatonin. Less light = more melatonin. So sit in as dimly lit room as possible and try to either put the brightness down on the TV or turn it off. That's a big problem why people laying in bed watching TV have such a hard time getting to sleep - I guess depending on what they're watching too Computer screen is the same.

Valerian can sometimes make me groggy, which is why I take it sparingly. The grogginess is nowhere near the diphenhydramine sleeping pills though (ie. Tylenol PM, Benedryl, etc.).

Less important for sleep, but for better or for worse, you could also add a 5-HTP or tryptophan capsule in any combination of those above - a serotonin precursor. I believe tryptophan is also a precursor to melatonin as well. Taking all 3 is basically like that combination they advertise on TV all the time - I can't remember the name. I think it starts with an 'A'. It's nothing new really.

Don't forget about magnesium either. Here is good information (from .edu sites) about magnesium deficiency and it also talk about how it relaxes your muscles and mentions headaches: general magnesium site Here is a site that goes into what affects magnesium (including sleep deprivation and diuretics) and how it affects people: magnesium overview

I don't know what the long-term side-effects of simply sleeping pills are, but I know taking something like Tylenol or Tylenol PM can lead to liver damage from the acetaminophen.

I hope that helps to give some insight from my experience. I'm not saying I recommend any of those, but I encourage you to make your own decision. Sleep is essential and I believe it is CRITICAL to this medication's effectiveness. This medication DOES affect sleep whether you think you sleep or not.
__________________
* I am not a doctor and the statements I post may be wrong in their entirety or may be out of date, but I will do the best I can to help you with factual objective information.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 06-01-10, 12:56 PM
eckk eckk is offline
Member
 

Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Posts: 36
Thanks: 1
Thanked 5 Times in 5 Posts
eckk is on a distinguished road
Re: am I experience a too high dose of Vyvanse?

Quote:
Originally Posted by novaprospekt View Post
Hey again

I'm glad I could help you clearing up some of your questions. I touched on the anxiety because I figured if you were having those other symptoms then you probably had the anxiety as well since that seems to be a common denominator. You are going to find that anxiety and stimulants are kind of married because of the way anxiety is caused chemically in the brain. The best you can do about that is try and find ways to cope and eventually not let it bother you.

You mentioned something interesting to me about the socializing. I've been on Wellbutrin (an amphetamine) for about a year and a half now, and Vyvanse for about 3 months. I noticed that while on these drugs I seem to notice things in more detail than other people. In other words, when I'm in conversation I seem to obsess over little details the person is saying and I feel like I observe things that others may overlook. I think the medical term for this is hypervigilance and that may be something you are experiencing as well-- and I can see how that can lead to a little anxiety.

As for the insomnia, yes some nights I have similar issues where I will fall asleep okay (with the help of the antihistamine) but I will get into a light sleep and sometimes actually wake up between the hours of 5am-7am (I fall asleep around 1:30am and wake at 9:15am) and my mind will be racing during those 2 hours. I will toss and turn in bed and be thinking about random things that happened the day before or just things in general and it takes a lot of effort to fall back asleep. The only reason I can think of that can cause this is to have residual amounts of the Vyvanse still in your blood that can interrupt one of your 'weaker' sleep cycles. The drug isn't completely cleared when your dose wears off at night -- the way in which drug clearance works is that there will be small traces in the later hours that take longer to be removed than larger amounts.

Maybe this is what you seem to be experiencing
Hi,

First, I took the 80mg this morning with 1/2 cup of a lattee and feel good! no headaches, no feeling jittery. I will see how the 1/2 cup affects me throughout the day and I'm meeting friends later so I'll know about the whole increase in talking

I know what you say about the small details. I don't find that I overfocus on those now. Its hard to say though, I am very analytical by nature and often tend to focus on details that matter but that noone else sees (good thing). I just focus on less of the ones that didn't matter prior to the meds.

As for the insomnia, yes that sounds like what I am experiencing. I took my meds yesterday at 830AM and went to bed at 11PM and you are likely right, I'm still feeling the residual effects. It just seems like the side effects of the 100mg, increase in talking etc and jittery feeling, anxiety almost kind of feel like the drug isn't working as good as the 80mg and I hate feeling the anxiety because I get self-conscious and bummed out.

I'm totally willing to try the 90mg if my doctor suggests it. I may start taking the meds earlier.

I was up for about 45 minutes when I posted my earlier post and went to bed where I twisted and turned for probably another 20 minutes. Now, for whatever reason, the fetal position puts me to sleep (2nd time now) and thank goodness! (maybe just coincidence but I'm running with it! haha!)

I always worry about sleep since I'm an emergency responder (pc) and being well rested for work is important.

-eck
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 06-01-10, 03:13 PM
novaprospekt novaprospekt is offline
Contributor
 

Join Date: May 2010
Location: New York, NY
Posts: 257
Thanks: 19
Thanked 99 Times in 70 Posts
novaprospekt will become famous soon enough
Re: am I experience a too high dose of Vyvanse?

Quote:
Originally Posted by eckk View Post
Hi,

First, I took the 80mg this morning with 1/2 cup of a lattee and feel good! no headaches, no feeling jittery. I will see how the 1/2 cup affects me throughout the day and I'm meeting friends later so I'll know about the whole increase in talking

I know what you say about the small details. I don't find that I overfocus on those now. Its hard to say though, I am very analytical by nature and often tend to focus on details that matter but that noone else sees (good thing). I just focus on less of the ones that didn't matter prior to the meds.

As for the insomnia, yes that sounds like what I am experiencing. I took my meds yesterday at 830AM and went to bed at 11PM and you are likely right, I'm still feeling the residual effects. It just seems like the side effects of the 100mg, increase in talking etc and jittery feeling, anxiety almost kind of feel like the drug isn't working as good as the 80mg and I hate feeling the anxiety because I get self-conscious and bummed out.

I'm totally willing to try the 90mg if my doctor suggests it. I may start taking the meds earlier.

I was up for about 45 minutes when I posted my earlier post and went to bed where I twisted and turned for probably another 20 minutes. Now, for whatever reason, the fetal position puts me to sleep (2nd time now) and thank goodness! (maybe just coincidence but I'm running with it! haha!)

I always worry about sleep since I'm an emergency responder (pc) and being well rested for work is important.

-eck
Well I'm glad you seem to be feeling better on the 80mg + coffee, and hopefully that proves to be better as the rest of the day unfolds. I know how frustrating it can be trying to sleep and not being able to no matter what you do.


Quote:
Originally Posted by demo3210 View Post
Valerian can sometimes make me groggy, which is why I take it sparingly. The grogginess is nowhere near the diphenhydramine sleeping pills though (ie. Tylenol PM, Benedryl, etc.).

Less important for sleep, but for better or for worse, you could also add a 5-HTP or tryptophan capsule in any combination of those above - a serotonin precursor. I believe tryptophan is also a precursor to melatonin as well. Taking all 3 is basically like that combination they advertise on TV all the time - I can't remember the name. I think it starts with an 'A'. It's nothing new really.

I don't know what the long-term side-effects of simply sleeping pills are, but I know taking something like Tylenol or Tylenol PM can lead to liver damage from the acetaminophen.

I hope that helps to give some insight from my experience. I'm not saying I recommend any of those, but I encourage you to make your own decision. Sleep is essential and I believe it is CRITICAL to this medication's effectiveness. This medication DOES affect sleep whether you think you sleep or not.
If it was to become a routine(nightly) thing having to take diphenhydramine like I do, then it wouldn't be a good idea to use Tylenol PM because yes, acetaminophen (tylenols active ingredient) is bad for your liver. I use Advil PM or Sominex (Advil PM is ibuprofen + diphenhydramine, Sominex is just diphenhydramine) which are much safer.

To avoid the grogginess from the antihistamines you can take half of the suggested dose (1 pill instead of 2) or allow 8 hours from the time you take it to the time you plan to wake up to elapse. I don't get groggy from 1 pill and 8 hours of time from taking it to sleep.

I noticed you also mentioned supplements and herbs. I personally don't recommend taking something like Valerian for several reasons. One reason is that the way in which this works is by mimicking the inhibitory neurotransmitter GABA which by the way is how things like Valium work (powerful sedative drugs) - your body may become used to having this effect and you can have rebound anxiety and overstimulation as it becomes less sensitive to endogenous GABA. Another reason is that there is little medical research put into using herbs and their effects on body systems in the long term.

5-HTP you need to be careful with because it can raise blood pressure significantly unless you take another compound called carbidopa. This may be problematic for people who already have hypertension chronically or that induced by the Vyvanse and other stimulants they take. Carbidopa is prescription only while 5-HTP isn't.

Regardless, discussing these things with your doctor is probably the best route before trying anything suggested here, including the antihistamines. Diphenhydramine isn't completely safe either, especially for people with arrhythmias (though you probably shouldn't take Vyvanse period if you have that). Hopefully this helps give you some ideas to have a conversation with him or her.
__________________
I am not a doctor. I am a 21yo college student studying biochemistry and pre-medicine. I have extensive interest in pharmacology, particularly in the fields of mental disorders. I hope my advice is helpful but always discuss problems or changes to medications with your doctor first!
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 06-01-10, 04:58 PM
demo3210's Avatar
demo3210 demo3210 is offline
Contributor
 

Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: USA
Posts: 310
Thanks: 104
Thanked 72 Times in 49 Posts
demo3210 is an unknown quantity at this point
Re: am I experience a too high dose of Vyvanse?

Quote:
Originally Posted by novaprospekt View Post
I noticed you also mentioned supplements and herbs. I personally don't recommend taking something like Valerian for several reasons. One reason is that the way in which this works is by mimicking the inhibitory neurotransmitter GABA which by the way is how things like Valium work (powerful sedative drugs) - your body may become used to having this effect and you can have rebound anxiety and overstimulation as it becomes less sensitive to endogenous GABA. Another reason is that there is little medical research put into using herbs and their effects on body systems in the long term.

5-HTP you need to be careful with because it can raise blood pressure significantly unless you take another compound called carbidopa. This may be problematic for people who already have hypertension chronically or that induced by the Vyvanse and other stimulants they take. Carbidopa is prescription only while 5-HTP isn't.

Nova, your post has good points and I'm glad you brought them up, but I find it somewhat bigoted to so adamantly recommend not giving Valerian or 5-HTP a shot when you already take Vyvanse, while also recommending diphenhydramine - which isn't flawless either. Valerian and 5-HTP are generally considered safe when taken reasonably and/or as directed.

If someone can handle Vyvanse, 5-HTP will likely not be an issue as far as blood pressure goes. The only studies I found is one that shows reduced blood pressure from taking 5-HTP see here. I will note: that study is done by a pharm. company - so reader beware, but it is the only study with blood pressure I found. Maybe if you took it with an anti-depressant it would raise it.

Valarien is not a benzodiazepine and there are more differences than similarities. You're right, there are no significant long-term studies endorsing its safety, neither are there any for Vyvanse - yet we still take it anyway. The only reason that Valerian sometimes has a warning for withdrawal symptoms, and they all site the same case see here, is because of one case involving a 58 year old man with preexisting health conditions who took excessive amounts of it every day and was also on a ton of other drugs (see the study). Some places also disclaim Valerian because its reduced the withdrawal symptoms in rats with actual benzodiazepine withdrawal. I've never seen a study that specifically linked Valerian to withdrawal - if there is, I would be interested in reading it.

Compared to diphenhydramine, Valerian also has a remarkably low ability to overdose in studies. Personally, I can attest that for sleep, I took Valerian for over 3 years rarely missing a night. When I stopped taking it I did not feel any side-effects I can remember. But everyone is different. I was taking no more than 400mg at a time as well.

There are also no long-term studies on diphenhydramine. While Valerian may affect the GABAa receptor, know that diphenhydramine functions like an anti-depressant - inhibits serotonin reuptake - and was used as such before newer ones developed - can see here. Your same logic you use for Valerian in your post can apply there too. "your body may become used to having this effect and you can have rebound anxiety and overstimulation as it becomes less sensitive to endogenous [insert neurotransmitter here]."

I'm by no means endorsing any of these herbs or supplements, but there are risks and benefits to everything. My call to action - get all the facts and talk to your doctor.
__________________
* I am not a doctor and the statements I post may be wrong in their entirety or may be out of date, but I will do the best I can to help you with factual objective information.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 06-01-10, 08:50 PM
novaprospekt novaprospekt is offline
Contributor
 

Join Date: May 2010
Location: New York, NY
Posts: 257
Thanks: 19
Thanked 99 Times in 70 Posts
novaprospekt will become famous soon enough
Re: am I experience a too high dose of Vyvanse?

Quote:
Originally Posted by demo3210 View Post
Nova, your post has good points and I'm glad you brought them up, but I find it somewhat bigoted to so adamantly recommend not giving Valerian or 5-HTP a shot when you already take Vyvanse, while also recommending diphenhydramine - which isn't flawless either. Valerian and 5-HTP are generally considered safe when taken reasonably and/or as directed.

If someone can handle Vyvanse, 5-HTP will likely not be an issue as far as blood pressure goes. The only studies I found is one that shows reduced blood pressure from taking 5-HTP see here. I will note: that study is done by a pharm. company - so reader beware, but it is the only study with blood pressure I found. Maybe if you took it with an anti-depressant it would raise it.

Valarien is not a benzodiazepine and there are more differences than similarities. You're right, there are no significant long-term studies endorsing its safety, neither are there any for Vyvanse - yet we still take it anyway. The only reason that Valerian sometimes has a warning for withdrawal symptoms, and they all site the same case see here, is because of one case involving a 58 year old man with preexisting health conditions who took excessive amounts of it every day and was also on a ton of other drugs (see the study). Some places also disclaim Valerian because its reduced the withdrawal symptoms in rats with actual benzodiazepine withdrawal. I've never seen a study that specifically linked Valerian to withdrawal - if there is, I would be interested in reading it.

Compared to diphenhydramine, Valerian also has a remarkably low ability to overdose in studies. Personally, I can attest that for sleep, I took Valerian for over 3 years rarely missing a night. When I stopped taking it I did not feel any side-effects I can remember. But everyone is different. I was taking no more than 400mg at a time as well.

There are also no long-term studies on diphenhydramine. While Valerian may affect the GABAa receptor, know that diphenhydramine functions like an anti-depressant - inhibits serotonin reuptake - and was used as such before newer ones developed - can see here. Your same logic you use for Valerian in your post can apply there too. "your body may become used to having this effect and you can have rebound anxiety and overstimulation as it becomes less sensitive to endogenous [insert neurotransmitter here]."

I'm by no means endorsing any of these herbs or supplements, but there are risks and benefits to everything. My call to action - get all the facts and talk to your doctor.
I mentioned toward the end of my post that taking 5-HTP which may increase blood pressure further than the increase you are getting from Vyvanse and other stimulants and is a reason to be concerned, but I didn't mean to sound contradictory. My intentions were to indicate that if one is concerned with blood pressure and uses it as a reason not to take 5-HTP then they should also weigh the risk/benefit of taking Vyvanse as well.

I made these intentions a bit more clear in the context of discussing that diphenhydramine was not 100% safe either. I agree with you that it isn't the safest compound either. As an anticholinergic agent, people with heart problems can experience perhaps deadly reactions to it (arrhythmias most notably). Granted, therapeutic doses are generally safe, you cannot ever be completely sure and that's why I think we both agree to discuss anything with the doctor first.

As for the Valerian, I didn't say it was a benzodiazepine. I merely wanted to point out its similarity to one by its effects on GABA-ergic transmission. I know benzos are much more potent and have a higher side-effect profile -- yet at the same time benzos are more well-studied too. I know there has been a few isolated cases of benzodiazepine-like withdrawal from taking Valerian. What concerns me about it is that it's used off-label as an alternative to them in some cases, and as someone who is prescribed a benzo (clonazepam) I really don't like that family of drugs.

Finally, let me mention that yes I am a bit biased against supplements and herbs for the following reason. I had a friend who was into weight training and building muscle and he went to GNC and got a bunch of pills and other substances and didn't really know their health effects - only that they were good for body building when he read in some magazines. Turns out, the combination of crap he was taking almost killed his heart and he went to the hospital after having chest pains. We were both 19 at the time. Since then I've been extremely cautious about anything that isn't FDA approved, and even stuff that is approved I do a lot of research on before advocating for or against it. And nowadays, my friends usually ask me about some supplement they want to take (usually exercise related) before they take it so I can tell them which is safe, and which may work and which won't. I really am a bit jaded by that whole industry though and that is the basis for my thinking.
__________________
I am not a doctor. I am a 21yo college student studying biochemistry and pre-medicine. I have extensive interest in pharmacology, particularly in the fields of mental disorders. I hope my advice is helpful but always discuss problems or changes to medications with your doctor first!
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 06-17-10, 01:41 PM
eckk eckk is offline
Member
 

Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Posts: 36
Thanks: 1
Thanked 5 Times in 5 Posts
eckk is on a distinguished road
Re: am I experience a too high dose of Vyvanse?

Hi folks,

For those of you who read this thread and/or responded, I thought I would put an update!

Shortly after I posted, I went back to the 80mg dosage until I could get in to see my doctor. What I realized the day that I started to take the 80s again was just how incredibly sleep deprived I had been from all the insomnia! I'm thankful that I was able to realize this.

I went to my doctor and told him of all of the things I had been experiencing and actually forgot to tell him about the insomnia. When I told him that I had the massive headaches, sensitivity to light, bad cotton mouth, was talking 10X more than usually and felt anxious now because of it and felt the medication wasn't working, he asked me if I had been experiencing insomnia.

He went onto say that if I had been experiencing insomnia and was sleep deprived then the medications would feel like speed and that when the dose is too high, it makes certain symptoms and side effects worse.

Anyway so I have been back on the 80mg now for a few weeks. It seems like it took my body about a week to totally readjust to the 80mg and feel the way I did the previous time I took this dosage.

Anyway I feel so much better! The 80mg still isn't improving my focus and motivation as much as the 50mg dosage + caffeine but I can deal with it. My sleep has also returned to normal and I get up 30-60 minutes earlier to take my medication to make sure it doesn't affect it.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 06-17-10, 08:49 PM
novaprospekt novaprospekt is offline
Contributor
 

Join Date: May 2010
Location: New York, NY
Posts: 257
Thanks: 19
Thanked 99 Times in 70 Posts
novaprospekt will become famous soon enough
Re: am I experience a too high dose of Vyvanse?

Quote:
Originally Posted by eckk View Post
Hi folks,

For those of you who read this thread and/or responded, I thought I would put an update!

Shortly after I posted, I went back to the 80mg dosage until I could get in to see my doctor. What I realized the day that I started to take the 80s again was just how incredibly sleep deprived I had been from all the insomnia! I'm thankful that I was able to realize this.

I went to my doctor and told him of all of the things I had been experiencing and actually forgot to tell him about the insomnia. When I told him that I had the massive headaches, sensitivity to light, bad cotton mouth, was talking 10X more than usually and felt anxious now because of it and felt the medication wasn't working, he asked me if I had been experiencing insomnia.

He went onto say that if I had been experiencing insomnia and was sleep deprived then the medications would feel like speed and that when the dose is too high, it makes certain symptoms and side effects worse.

Anyway so I have been back on the 80mg now for a few weeks. It seems like it took my body about a week to totally readjust to the 80mg and feel the way I did the previous time I took this dosage.

Anyway I feel so much better! The 80mg still isn't improving my focus and motivation as much as the 50mg dosage + caffeine but I can deal with it. My sleep has also returned to normal and I get up 30-60 minutes earlier to take my medication to make sure it doesn't affect it.
I'm glad to see that things have improved for you! Hopefully you and your doctor can work together now to perhaps improve your focus issues but it sounds like you are much better off than you were just some weeks ago having all those negative side effects and feelings.
__________________
I am not a doctor. I am a 21yo college student studying biochemistry and pre-medicine. I have extensive interest in pharmacology, particularly in the fields of mental disorders. I hope my advice is helpful but always discuss problems or changes to medications with your doctor first!
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 06-18-10, 03:20 AM
Nick Nick is offline
Contributor
 

Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 400
Thanks: 23
Thanked 274 Times in 150 Posts
Nick is just really niceNick is just really niceNick is just really niceNick is just really nice
Re: am I experience a too high dose of Vyvanse?

Quote:
Originally Posted by eckk View Post
Hi there!

Thank you very much for the useful information. I can't get in to see my doctor until June 9th. I'm planning on following your advice and going back to the 80mg tomorrow. I'm going to see if the headaches go away for a few days and then try and add a bit of coffee, or maybe tea since it has less caffeine when brewed.

I already talk a lot so the extra talking for me I do not consider an option. If I didn't talk so much it might not be a big deal but it is.

I'm happy you mentioned anxiety, I totally forgot about it.

When I started taking Vyvanse, I found that my anxiety was directly related to how my symptoms affected my life and social situations. Ie, I'd blurt something out and then would spend too much time thinking about how much of an idiot I must of sounded like or what the persons who were there thought of me. I saw the anxiety go away. Now with the extra talking, I've felt increasingly anxious because of just that. I don't say blurt out anything but I talk wayyyyyyyy too much, causing people around me to notice.

I fell asleep tonight at about 11PM but now I'm up at 0240 hours. I basically went from deep sleep to waking up and thinking over and over and over about a critical incident that happened at work a few days prior (without even initiating it). It was like my brain woke up and started to think about it on its own and then I couldn't get my brain to stop. I guess it's like trying to fall asleep but having repetitive conscious thought of work except my body goes from sleep to wake doing it.

Is your insomnia anything like mine? I don't usually have a problem getting to sleep if I take my meds early enough.. I just sometimes end up waking up.

Another good example... while on holidays in mexico, I was reading a book that was absolutely fascinating to me and couldn't put it down. I read in bed before going to sleep. At about 2AM, my mind started to thinking about the book, over and over and over and it's like I was aware of it and aware of sounds in the room but somehow asleep and finally totally woke up because it was so damn annoying. It's like all those intrusive thoughts that I usually get without the meds had been held back and were flooding my brain!

-eck
First off, diphenhydramine is an excellent sleep aid that you should always have available. It comes as Simply Sleep, Sominex, and a few other brands. It is basically Benadryl, which everyone knows as the allergy medication etc. However, even though it is the same chemical, it makes you more tired and has more of a sleepy effect than Benadryl. I do not know why this is, but that has been my observation. So, if you see Benadryl and think that since it's the same chemical it will work the same, you will be disappointed.

Recommended dose is two pills, but one pill is typically enough, especially when you first start using it. It works really well. I have used it for years.


Now as far as your anxiety goes, I know exactly what you are talking about!

It's the guilt/embarrassment complex. We beat ourselves up over the smallest details, even when there is absolutely no reason to. I had this problem when I was drinking alcohol: I would drink, and be in good form, but I was very talkative, and even though I didn't say or do anything inappropriate, I always woke up the next day feeling the worst embarrassment and guilt imaginable. I was beating myself up over everything, didn't matter what it was. It was completely irrational 90% of the time.

Then what happens is, these feelings and thoughts, build up on each other. There is a cumulative effect, and it gets worse and worse.

This whole thing can begin as a result of a previous anxiety disorder or programming, or it can just begin on its own. But, it is very unhealthy.

I don't know what the solution is. Can you "unlearn" how you react to yourself? I don't know. I think having someone to reassure you, that you didn't talk to much or make a fool of yourself etc is a good start, but even with reassurance, there can still be doubt. And it's not always easy to get that. Who is going to reassure you at work, who can you be open with about it?

For me, stopping drinking eliminated the problem mostly. I still have it, but in comparison, it's not a problem.

Vyvanse can also make you talk a lot. I noticed that I talk a lot on Vyvanse. Why? For me, I feel inspired, motivated, productive, and want to talk and discuss important things with enthusiasm. I don't have a job right now, and haven't tested interacting with others on Vyvanse outside of those close to me, so it is quite different. My talking was limited to family etc, so that changes everything. While sometimes I would feel the way I described before about some of the things I said, generally there is more trust and comfort with people close to you. If I was working, and taking Vyvanse, and talking like this, I fear that I might start to feel similar as I did with alcohol. I imagine that this is actually a pretty accurate comparison.

I think first off, there needs to be a determination of what you are saying, how you are saying it, and if it is in fact something you should be embarrassed about or not. If you are being inappropriate or obnoxious or something else, then this would be a legitimate reason to have anxiety over it after wards. The solution to that is to develop more control over what you say, and fix it that way. If you don't put things out there that will bother you later, then you won't be bothered by those things later.

If however you are doing nothing "wrong", then it is most likely unnecessary personal guilt and embarrassment. Meaning, it's all in your head. Everyone thinks what you are saying is normal or they don't even think about what you are saying, but you imagine they are thinking about this way more than they are, or that they are thinking about it in a negative or unfavorable way.

The bottom line is that this is whole thing is very unhealthy for you. It will build up and get worse if you don't get some control over it

Sleep is very important. This is the chance for your body to rest and repair itself, and it's also the chance for your mind to process everything. Your mind needs rest, and it needs opportunity to repair itself, physically, and mentally. So, the sleep issue must be taken care of.


These intrusive thoughts you are having come from an unknown source. Is it anxiety? Is it ADD? Is it OCD? Is it PTSD? Did this way of thinking come from some previous experiences where you did talk to much and then felt extremely embarassed, and now you wired yourself to think that way all the time? Or is it coming from the Vyvanse? Is the Vyvanse pushing you too much, and you don't know how to deal with it? Or is coming down off the Vyvanse allowing the doors to open, and thoughts that were controlled while on it, now come back at you?

There are a million questions that could be asked about this. All of the anxiety disorders kind of overlap each other.

The important thing here is getting the anxiety under control.

I believe you have anxiety issues. If your sleep is being disturbed, and your thoughts are bothering you, then it is a problem, and it will have a negative affect on your quality of life.

I think you need to treat yourself for anxiety.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Nick For This Useful Post:
novaprospekt (06-18-10)
  #15  
Old 06-18-10, 05:19 PM
novaprospekt novaprospekt is offline
Contributor
 

Join Date: May 2010
Location: New York, NY
Posts: 257
Thanks: 19
Thanked 99 Times in 70 Posts
novaprospekt will become famous soon enough
Re: am I experience a too high dose of Vyvanse?

Nick, just an fyi about diphenhydramine...

It's a pretty potent anticholinergic agent and while I believe it is safe, it is probably worth noting that this can cause arrhythmias (or exacerbate pre-existing ones) in some people among some other circulatory-related side effects.

I'm not sure how it interacts with amphetamines either, only a doctor really knows that, but having taken Advil PM (1 pill) nightly for over a month and then ceasing about 3 weeks ago, I've noticed that my Vyvanse works better when I don't have the antihistamine left over in my circulation the next morning and my head feels a little clearer. Not to mention, no grogginess in the AM anymore

I recommend using the diphenhydramine only as needed unless your doc says it's okay to use nightly.
__________________
I am not a doctor. I am a 21yo college student studying biochemistry and pre-medicine. I have extensive interest in pharmacology, particularly in the fields of mental disorders. I hope my advice is helpful but always discuss problems or changes to medications with your doctor first!
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Can too high dose make ADHD worse? wonderist Dexedrine/Dextrostat 3 02-03-10 07:10 AM
My Vyvanse Experience ADDinSRQ Vyvanse 3 09-09-09 09:44 PM
Vyvanse in small doses! prodrift101 Vyvanse 1 04-22-09 10:45 PM
Vyvanse Diary prodrift101 Vyvanse 1 04-22-09 02:04 PM
What dose of Adderall is the same strength of 30mg Vyvanse? JoeJack101 Vyvanse 3 09-25-08 12:44 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 05:11 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
(c) 2003 - 2014 ADD Forums